MDO plywood for transom

flyingfish58

Recruit
Joined
Oct 9, 2009
Messages
5
I've searched through 100's of threads but still have not found the answer I'm looking for. As slow as this forum loads on my computer I'm hoping someone can answer directly here. Researching what kind of wood to use for the transom rebuild, Marine is a possibility but as of yet I've not located a place to buy it. MDO is available and is relatively void free and high quality for a decent price. Does fiberglass epoxy resin stick and penetrate whatever the coating is on MDO? In other words can it be bonded together and then fiberglassed to the transom? Thanks
 

HVAC Cruiser

Lieutenant
Joined
Sep 12, 2009
Messages
1,254
Re: MDO plywood for transom

I wouldn't use MDO or MDF, it absorbs water and swells at a ridiculous rate.
A lot of us are using plain old ACX plywood it is alot cheeper than marine plywood. I used Coosa Board very expensive to do it over I would have used ACX and saved the extra $500.00.

In short Buy some ACX, let it dry out for awhile indoors, build yourself a new transom, glass it in

There are loads of threads of people doing the same Oops has a great thread complete with index don't have the link handy but its called hull extension in progress with pics
Its a day of reading with a wealth of knowledge

Good luck with your project and be sure to post lots of pictures
 

Bondo

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Messages
70,967
Re: MDO plywood for transom

Ayuh,... I Agree,... Anymore than plain ole Plywood is Too good,...
It's gettin' bathed in fiberglass,+ resin anyways....

There's Alot better places in your rebuild to Waste money,..;)
 

Robert4Winns

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Oct 28, 2009
Messages
146
Re: MDO plywood for transom

I wouldn't use MDO or MDF, it absorbs water and swells at a ridiculous rate.

MDO will not absorb water like MDF. It is exterior plywood with a paper face. It has a nice smoth surface that takes paint well for applications where that is necessary, such as a road sign. This is not really necessary for a transom.

I think Dan used MDO for his transom. http://transomfix.dcpolk.com/

I don't know if having the paper face is of any benefit or if it needs to be sanded off. It may be better than regular ACX in that it will probably have fewer voids, but many people on this forum have had success using ACX.
 

HVAC Cruiser

Lieutenant
Joined
Sep 12, 2009
Messages
1,254
Re: MDO plywood for transom

MDO will not absorb water like MDF. It is exterior plywood with a paper face. It has a nice smoth surface that takes paint well for applications where that is necessary, such as a road sign. This is not really necessary for a transom.

I think Dan used MDO for his transom. http://transomfix.dcpolk.com/

I don't know if having the paper face is of any benefit or if it needs to be sanded off. It may be better than regular ACX in that it will probably have fewer voids, but many people on this forum have had success using ACX.

You are 200% right I stand corrected, sorry about that. Its a resin impregnated board, way back when, I used to use MDO and MDF for making counter tops because of its super smooth flat surface easy to form clean sharp edges etc. For laminating with Formica it was excellent. I mistakenly clumped it all together in one group instead of thinking of overlay vs fiberboard.
One thing does stick out in my mind though it might be heavier than ACX

Regards,
Bill
 

jspano

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Oct 30, 2009
Messages
790
Re: MDO plywood for transom

i used the best exterior ply at lowes i forget the name but it was about 30.00 a 3/4 " sheet and cut 2 - 1 pc transom boards and lam the together

got pics???

joe
 

83vert

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
Messages
394
Re: MDO plywood for transom

I used MDO on my transom, stringers and bulkheads. No need to sand the paper off. Real nice stuff, no voids.
006-2.jpg
 

sschefer

Rear Admiral
Joined
Nov 13, 2008
Messages
4,530
Re: MDO plywood for transom

MDO (Medium Density Oriented Strand) board is now made with water resistant glues and could be used except it is still not rated for spans over 18". Forget that black diamond on your tape measure. Glassing it won't add enough strength to it for a transom with a large motor (300-400lb). I prefer to use Super Ply or Marine ply. The diff between them is Super Ply (Roseburg Lumber) is made with water proof resin glue and Marine Ply is made with water resistant glue. Both are rated as having few or no voids.

If you're looking for bullet proof, lay in a piece of bi or multi-directional weave carbon fiber, soaked in West Systems 105/205, between two pieces of 3/4" super ply and then glass that. I've hung up to 450lb motors off 1-1/2" thick transom when I'm supposed to be at a 2" and I've had no problems whatsoever. I do use 1/4" aluminum spreaders but I'm also running a Jack Plate that calls for them.
 

erikgreen

Captain
Joined
Jan 8, 2007
Messages
3,105
Re: MDO plywood for transom

Here's something to think about with regard to MDO.

Usually the weakest part of a laminated piece of wood is the joint between it and other wood or glass. With epoxy this usually means that the surface layer of wood fails first when something tries to pull apart the laminate. The epoxy is stronger than the wood, the adhesion of epoxy is stronger than the wood, the phenolic glue the plywood was created with is stronger than the wood... so the wood itself fails at the layer closest to the stress points.

With poly, depending on resin distribution and mechanical prep work, the same thing can happen or the poly itself can fail. Usually if poly fails, the joint would have failed anyway (delamination) regardless of the underlying material.

Now here's the thing: What is the weakest layer in a sandwich made from epoxy and two pieces of MDO? Where will it delaminate under stress, assuming the joint was prepped and made correctly?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

Yep, the paper. It's smooth for painting and covering, which is great for signs and finish work, but sucks for poly adhesion. Epoxy will stick to it anyway, of course.

So if you do everything right with MDO but leave the paper on, your transom laminate will be held together with the strength of a layer of paper... probably not what you want, especially if it gets wet :)

You can sand off the paper (and you should at least rough it up if you want the poly to stick as well as possible) but if you're going to do that why not use a high quality exterior grade wood in the first place?

Erik
 

erikgreen

Captain
Joined
Jan 8, 2007
Messages
3,105
Re: MDO plywood for transom

MDO (Medium Density Oriented Strand) board is now made with water resistant glues and could be used except it is still not rated for spans over 18". Forget that black diamond on your tape measure. Glassing it won't add enough strength to it for a transom with a large motor (300-400lb). I prefer to use Super Ply or Marine ply. The diff between them is Super Ply (Roseburg Lumber) is made with water proof resin glue and Marine Ply is made with water resistant glue. Both are rated as having few or no voids.
Um... I suppose it depends on which marine ply you use, but they're almost all made with phenolic glue (a form of epoxy, really) which is non water soluble and therefore water proof.

Side note: The "span" calculations for housing work or carpentry don't really apply to boats, because the transom wood is mostly used as the core of a composite panel.. the strength comes from compression resistance and shear resistance, not from the stiffness of the wood. The wood strength numbers would matter only if it's an uncovered transom like in an aluminum boat.

on to your next point...

If you're looking for bullet proof, lay in a piece of bi or multi-directional weave carbon fiber, soaked in West Systems 105/205, between two pieces of 3/4" super ply and then glass that.

I'm sure you've used this with success, but I need to point out a couple things. First, I'm guessing that placing the cloth between the layers of plywood comes from the old practice of gluing ply layers with CSM and poly resin. For this, the CSM in the middle is needed for adhesion (because of the way poly works).

However, if you're using epoxy like the west stuff, you don't need anything but the epoxy mixed with a little fumed silica (cabosil) or another thickener like west sells to glue the panels together. It'll do a fine job, and be much stronger than ply glued with poly resin and CSM.

In fact, placing a piece of cloth (as opposed to mat(CSM) in the middle of a sandwich like this gets you nothing at all, regardless of what resin you use. It's non intuitive, I know. Here's why this is the case:

1) Fabric doesn't help adhesion any, only CSM does, and it's only needed with poly

2) The strength of a composite panel like a transom comes mostly from the fiberglass. The wood is there to keep the two fiberglass skins apart and parallel, like the top and bottom of an I beam. The wood is the center of the 'I'. If you put fabric in the middle of the wood it's like building an I beam half as tall... you don't get even half the strength of the full height.

Here's a good reference to how the panels work:
http://www.sandwichpanelmachinery.com/knowhow.html

All this is not to say that the wood doesn't add stiffness... plywood itself is a composite panel, and it does make your transom stiffer than one made from EG balsa core.

Now if you want a super-strong transom, you can get one with a good quality plywood core. No voids is important(voids are holes in the center of the I-beam). If you want lower weight and better water resistance, use foam core or hex cell, but the plywood is actually stronger with regard to compression and shear than most foams.

Cover the plywood on the outermost surfaces with carbon fiber in 2-3 layers (depending on the weight of the cloth) and use a vacuum infusion process to make sure you get the ideal amount of resin in it. You'll have a transom that's 5-6 times stronger than an equally thick transom made with fiberglass.

This is OVERKILL though. A transom made with 2x plywood layers laminated with epoxy, tabbed with 3 layers of biax tape and covered with 2-3 layers of biax cloth is far stronger than any factory made boat transom and will last longer than you own the boat assuming it stays dry. The rest of the hull will fail structurally before it does too.

If you want to make an unusually thin transom for some reason you might go with carbon fiber on the outside, but if you're doing that you'll know the calculations to determine the strength of the eventual composite, and you probably wouldn't be asking questions here :)

Erik
 

flyingfish58

Recruit
Joined
Oct 9, 2009
Messages
5
Re: MDO plywood for transom

Wow, great information. This has been interesting reading. I think I will either try to find Marine or a good ACX. I guess my intention is to overbuild whatever I do so it won't fail again in my lifetime. Thanks to all.
 

Pap's SuperSport

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Oct 28, 2009
Messages
38
Re: MDO plywood for transom

I'm gonna have to read that again, but WOW Erik, that was some knowledge...Thanks.
 

flyingfish58

Recruit
Joined
Oct 9, 2009
Messages
5
Re: MDO plywood for transom

Heres my update. I was at the HD today for lunch. They have an exterior grade cabinet 3/4 ply from South America. There is 1 stack of the stuff on a special buy for about $25 a sheet. I'm not trying to be cheap but this is the best looking stuff I have seen. Both sides look excellent. The edges show less voids than any other ply they have regardless of the price. I have read someplace that the South American hardwood they use is excellent quality. I plan on going back to get this tomorrow.
 

tashasdaddy

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Nov 11, 2005
Messages
51,019
Re: MDO plywood for transom

use plywood, put the mdo mdf out in the weather for 6 months unprotected, you will see why. i used it for a ramp to my shead. stepped thru it 4 months later.
 

sschefer

Rear Admiral
Joined
Nov 13, 2008
Messages
4,530
Re: MDO plywood for transom

Good info Erik. My method works for me and I beat the heck out of my transom(s).
 

sschefer

Rear Admiral
Joined
Nov 13, 2008
Messages
4,530
Re: MDO plywood for transom

Heres my update. I was at the HD today for lunch. They have an exterior grade cabinet 3/4 ply from South America. There is 1 stack of the stuff on a special buy for about $25 a sheet. I'm not trying to be cheap but this is the best looking stuff I have seen. Both sides look excellent. The edges show less voids than any other ply they have regardless of the price. I have read someplace that the South American hardwood they use is excellent quality. I plan on going back to get this tomorrow.

Don't get it wet. It's shop grade cab ply.
 

Robert4Winns

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Oct 28, 2009
Messages
146
Re: MDO plywood for transom

use plywood, put the mdo mdf out in the weather for 6 months unprotected, you will see why. i used it for a ramp to my shead. stepped thru it 4 months later.

MDO (medium density overlay) is exterior plywood and should not be confused with MDF (medium density fiberboard) or OSB (oriented strand board). MDF and OSB are fine for certain applications in home building, but I would not use either of them on a boat.
 

erikgreen

Captain
Joined
Jan 8, 2007
Messages
3,105
Re: MDO plywood for transom

Heres my update. I was at the HD today for lunch. They have an exterior grade cabinet 3/4 ply from South America. There is 1 stack of the stuff on a special buy for about $25 a sheet. I'm not trying to be cheap but this is the best looking stuff I have seen. Both sides look excellent. The edges show less voids than any other ply they have regardless of the price. I have read someplace that the South American hardwood they use is excellent quality. I plan on going back to get this tomorrow.

It might be "Arauco" which is what I currently use for boat work.

If that's what it is, basically it's a plantation grown plywood made with a process that generates low voids (mostly because of the shape of the trees involved... plantation grown makes for uniform trees). Every time I've gotten some it's been nice and flat, almost void free, one side furniture grade and smooth, and the other side B or C grade and sanded.

Very nice stuff. I put a couple pieces of it through a boil test to make sure it won't delaminate. It's also nearly as cheap as B grade exterior ply.

Just make sure what you get is exterior rated or uses waterproof glue (Arauco for example may not be advertised as "exterior" because using that word requires a special legal certification in eg. my home state) and you'll be ok.

I'm about to use two sheets of Arauco 3/4" ply for a transom, cost to me about $25 per 4x8 sheet.

Erik
 

PaulyV

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Sep 7, 2008
Messages
525
Re: MDO plywood for transom

I just picked up 5 sheets at the depot..23.50 a sheet 3/4" AC EXTERIOR Its Labeled! No voids whatsoever. Jump on that.
 
Top