Marine Plywood

wallybme

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Dec 21, 2008
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What is it made from: fir, mahogony , teak or pine? I tried to get some and was told they have treated fir. Is this ok?
 

tashasdaddy

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51,019
Re: Marine Plywood

fine, it is the type glue, that makes the difference. when you get to teak or mahogny, the price skyrockets.
 

Lone Duck

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868
Re: Marine Plywood

What is it made from: fir, mahogony , teak or pine? I tried to get some and was told they have treated fir. Is this ok?

Yup! You can also use M D O ( medium density overlay) It is the type of stuff they use on highway signs. I have used both, and the m d o has less voids than marine ply . Hence more strength. The mdo has a type of paper epoxied to it, Makes for a smooth finish. Fir will check even when painted unless you glass it first.
 

a70eliminator

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Re: Marine Plywood

What is it made from: fir, mahogony , teak or pine? I tried to get some and was told they have treated fir. Is this ok?

I'm no wood expert but somebody told me the plywood with little football shapes here and there is good to use, maybe somebody here can explain that?
 

mthieme

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Re: Marine Plywood

The little footballs have to do with the grade of plywood.
 

tallcanadian

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Re: Marine Plywood

the marine grade i used on my boat was spruce. if your going to fiberglass then treated woods won't work well.
 

wallybme

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Re: Marine Plywood

Then you are saying if I am going to glass I do not need the treated fir?
 

erikgreen

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3,105
Re: Marine Plywood

Yup! You can also use M D O ( medium density overlay) It is the type of stuff they use on highway signs. I have used both, and the m d o has less voids than marine ply . Hence more strength. The mdo has a type of paper epoxied to it, Makes for a smooth finish. Fir will check even when painted unless you glass it first.

Um... no. MDO is far weaker than marine grade, unless you're comparing thick MDO to thin marine. MDO is a poor choice for any boat work, because it's designed to have a smooth face for sign painting. It's paper faced. So when you glass anything to it, you're glassing to a piece of paper glued to a piece of wood. This is actually worse than glassing to plywood with a thin veneer on the outer layer... you want to glass over a layer of wood that's not going to pull off easily.

There are several dissertations on the net about marine ply, and even some sellers don't know what they're talking about, so I encourage you to look up more info from the manufacturers and see what's what, don't just go by what you hear on this board.

Marine ply is made from several different types of wood. For example, two types readily available are okoume and meranti, which are actually species of wood if I'm not mistaken.

Marine ply is:
  • Made with waterproof (usually phenolic) glue
  • Made with no voids
  • Made with evenly thick plies (no paper thin surface veneers)
  • Sanded both sides
  • Not repaired (no footballs)
  • Sometimes Lloyd's certified for boat use; This may not matter, or may be critical in obtaining insurance or selling a boat.
Marine ply is NOT:
  • Rot proof (or even rot resistant, that depends on wood type)
  • cheap ($$$)
  • As easy to obtain as exterior ply or treated ply
Treated wood is fine for boat use IF you dry it first - it's usually got far too much water in it to use as-is. But using treated wood is less important than making sure whatever you use gets sealed with fiberglass and poly resin or epoxy. You don't want whatever wood you use to soak up water, period. Seal it and seal any holes you make in it.

Short answer to your question, look elsewhere and buy marine if you want to be conservative.. anyone who tries to sell you treated instead of marine has no idea what you really need. All the boat books and some marine architects will say to repair your boat using marine ply and epoxy.. both materials are more forgiving of weakness or poor technique than lesser ply and poly resin. But that's the safe answer for people who may get sued for giving bad advice.

If you want to do the repairs or work cheaply, use a good quality exterior grade, with as few voids as possible. Exterior grade differs from marine ply in just a few ways:
  • It's weaker (fewer plies and more voids)
  • It's cheaper
  • It's usually a less expensive wood, sometimes softer
But a repair done properly using a good exterior ply will last longer than you. A repair poorly done using marine ply will rot. A repair poorly done using treated ply won't rot, but will swell, cracking fiberglass and making your boat extra heavy.

Look around and do some research... this is probably the most common question asked on boat repair boards, and a quick google search on the differences between marine ply and other plywood will set you straight.

Final note: If you have a production boat from most makers, the original ply used probably was exterior or similar. Not treated, and not marine. However, if you know what was used by the maker, it's always safe to duplicate materials. I also know one marine architect who designs boats for home building, and specifies marine ply because he calculates the extra strength into his designs. The designer is always right :)

Erik
 

5150abf

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Aug 12, 2007
Messages
5,808
Re: Marine Plywood

Generally marine ply has more plys than Lowes/Menards wood.

3/4 at the home stores has 5 plys and marine has 7.

And the little footballs are where knots were cut out of the wood and filled with the footballs to make the sheet even for carpet.
 

Mark42

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Oct 8, 2003
Messages
9,334
Re: Marine Plywood

I am a big proponent of using pressure treated lumber in boats, especially small boats, for the following reasons:

- Cost; pressure treated is more than strong enough for small craft building/repairs and is much less expensive than marine. Use 5/8" rather than the 1/2" that is common.

- Tests show poly and epoxy don't penetrate plywood more than 1/32 to 1/16 inch deep. That is not even one full ply in the layers. So pessure treated ply doesn't have to fully dry to apply resin, just the top layer. Tests also show that the bond on wet plywood is nearly as strong as on dry. More than strong enough a bond for walking on.

- Encapsulating; If ply is just coated with resin, and no glass, that coating is very weak and brittle. Its the glass that makes it strong. So just coating the underside of regular ply will eventually crack from stress and flexing, allowing moisture in that will rot regular plywood in short order. P/T ply does not need the bottom sealed, moisture will not cause rot.

- Fasteners: P/T wood does not affect stainless steel. So no worries there.

These are just my personal opinion bases on published test results and my own experience. I don't want to start an argument, just want to give you some information to think about before deciding what materials to use. Do a search on this forum on pressure treated and marine grade. There are lots of posts, and some have the link to the tests of poly on wet pressure treated ply.

The best thing you can do is read about all the options and make a decision based on your own project needs. ;)
 

a70eliminator

Captain
Joined
Sep 9, 2007
Messages
3,746
Re: Marine Plywood

Ok, here's where I read about the football shapes designating marine grade. right here at Iboats.

http://www.allboating.com/topics/001386.html?paint

Exterior plywood and marine ply are the same except for one thing; marine ply has no voids in any of the layers. the layers are patched and filled, you know, those football shapes. this makes the plywood stronger, especially when you are going to bend it. For a floor, I would use exterior grade, at about half the price. Hey purple dragon, did you get your book yet? 2002-03-27

Written by user Joe Parker
Hope he doesn't mind me quoting his words but it looks like he read the book!
 

ondarvr

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Apr 6, 2005
Messages
11,527
Re: Marine Plywood

There are several suppliers of treated plywood designed for building boats, unlike store bought PT its been dried after treating.
 

Lone Duck

Master Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Oct 17, 2007
Messages
868
Re: Marine Plywood

Um... no. MDO is far weaker than marine grade, unless you're comparing thick MDO to thin marine. MDO is a poor choice for any boat work, because it's designed to have a smooth face for sign painting. It's paper faced. So when you glass anything to it, you're glassing to a piece of paper glued to a piece of wood. This is actually worse than glassing to plywood with a thin veneer on the outer layer... you want to glass over a layer of wood that's not going to pull off easily.

There are several dissertations on the net about marine ply, and even some sellers don't know what they're talking about, so I encourage you to look up more info from the manufacturers and see what's what, don't just go by what you hear on this board.

Marine ply is made from several different types of wood. For example, two types readily available are okoume and meranti, which are actually species of wood if I'm not mistaken.

Marine ply is:
  • Made with waterproof (usually phenolic) glue
  • Made with no voids
  • Made with evenly thick plies (no paper thin surface veneers)
  • Sanded both sides
  • Not repaired (no footballs)
  • Sometimes Lloyd's certified for boat use; This may not matter, or may be critical in obtaining insurance or selling a boat.
Marine ply is NOT:
  • Rot proof (or even rot resistant, that depends on wood type)
  • cheap ($$$)
  • As easy to obtain as exterior ply or treated ply
Treated wood is fine for boat use IF you dry it first - it's usually got far too much water in it to use as-is. But using treated wood is less important than making sure whatever you use gets sealed with fiberglass and poly resin or epoxy. You don't want whatever wood you use to soak up water, period. Seal it and seal any holes you make in it.

Short answer to your question, look elsewhere and buy marine if you want to be conservative.. anyone who tries to sell you treated instead of marine has no idea what you really need. All the boat books and some marine architects will say to repair your boat using marine ply and epoxy.. both materials are more forgiving of weakness or poor technique than lesser ply and poly resin. But that's the safe answer for people who may get sued for giving bad advice.

If you want to do the repairs or work cheaply, use a good quality exterior grade, with as few voids as possible. Exterior grade differs from marine ply in just a few ways:
  • It's weaker (fewer plies and more voids)
  • It's cheaper
  • It's usually a less expensive wood, sometimes softer
But a repair done properly using a good exterior ply will last longer than you. A repair poorly done using marine ply will rot. A repair poorly done using treated ply won't rot, but will swell, cracking fiberglass and making your boat extra heavy.

Look around and do some research... this is probably the most common question asked on boat repair boards, and a quick google search on the differences between marine ply and other plywood will set you straight.

Final note: If you have a production boat from most makers, the original ply used probably was exterior or similar. Not treated, and not marine. However, if you know what was used by the maker, it's always safe to duplicate materials. I also know one marine architect who designs boats for home building, and specifies marine ply because he calculates the extra strength into his designs. The designer is always right :)

Erik
Actually I have found more voids in marine ply Than mdo. but perhaps they send poor grades to N canada. But you have made some good points. I stand corrected.
 

erikgreen

Captain
Joined
Jan 8, 2007
Messages
3,105
Re: Marine Plywood

Just a couple comments...

I am a big proponent of using pressure treated lumber in boats, especially small boats, for the following reasons:

- Cost; pressure treated is more than strong enough for small craft building/repairs and is much less expensive than marine. Use 5/8" rather than the 1/2" that is common.
This is a bit overly general for me.. strength needed depends on application, and oversizing the wood gives you a sense of safety that may be false. It's best to at least match the size of the wood that was there before, and if it was marine ply or something stronger than plain ply then do the math to figure out how much of whatever material you need to replace it. Sure, just using 5/8 in place of 1/2 will likely be strong enough... but then again maybe not.
- Tests show poly and epoxy don't penetrate plywood more than 1/32 to 1/16 inch deep. That is not even one full ply in the layers. So pessure treated ply doesn't have to fully dry to apply resin, just the top layer. Tests also show that the bond on wet plywood is nearly as strong as on dry. More than strong enough a bond for walking on.
If you're using it for decking, that's ok. But remember that other parts of the boat are subject to significantly more force than someone walking on the wood. I have yet to see any rigorous study that proves that non dried PT is as strong or bonds as well to glass as dried wood.

Also bear in mind that excess water in the wood can cause outgassing... even if you get all the bubbles out when glassing, an hour later they can form spontaneously if the wood is in an environment where it's warming over its storage environment, or if it's in air that's drier than it is. Bubbles are not fun when painting, and they weaken a composite panel (glass).
- Encapsulating; If ply is just coated with resin, and no glass, that coating is very weak and brittle. Its the glass that makes it strong. So just coating the underside of regular ply will eventually crack from stress and flexing, allowing moisture in that will rot regular plywood in short order. P/T ply does not need the bottom sealed, moisture will not cause rot.
Replace "resin" in the above with "poly resin". Epoxy will not crack even if flexed (at least within a reasonable amount). Even if PT ply does not rot, it still absorbs moisture, gets heavier (bad for planing boats) and still swells and can warp, which can crack fiberglass. It also releases moisture back into the boat when it's drying eg. over the winter, which can give you mold or mildew when you least expect it in other places nearby.

- Fasteners: P/T wood does not affect stainless steel. So no worries there.

These are just my personal opinion bases on published test results and my own experience. I don't want to start an argument, just want to give you some information to think about before deciding what materials to use. Do a search on this forum on pressure treated and marine grade. There are lots of posts, and some have the link to the tests of poly on wet pressure treated ply.

Personally, I have no problem with PT provided it's A) Dried out before use and B) Encapsulated fully. If you're going to not coat it fully, like for a temporary floor or a dock, then don't bother glassing at all. It won't last nearly as long as a glassed floor, but then if you're only using the boat a couple of years before junking it, it may not matter.

The best thing you can do is read about all the options and make a decision based on your own project needs. ;)

Amen to that.

Erik
 

erikgreen

Captain
Joined
Jan 8, 2007
Messages
3,105
Re: Marine Plywood

Actually I have found more voids in marine ply Than mdo. but perhaps they send poor grades to N canada. But you have made some good points. I stand corrected.

Hmm... if someone is selling you "marine ply" with voids, I'd recommend you take a close look at what you're getting... it sounds like someone may be taking advantage of being the "only game in town".

MDO is a great material for its intended purpose, and if I was building anything that was going to be painted instead of glassed, I'd consider it. The smooth surface does really help its looks.

Erik
 

Mark42

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Messages
9,334
Re: Marine Plywood

BTW, chances are wallbme's boat was not even built using marine grade plywood, as few manufacturers use it due to cost. In fact, there are no regulations stating that pleasure boats must be built from marine grade plywood. Outside of fuel, motor, electric and floatation, regulations required by the USCG, its pretty wide open when it comes to the pleasure boat market and what materials are used to build the hull and deck of a boat.
 

jonesg

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Feb 22, 2008
Messages
7,198
Re: Marine Plywood

BTW, chances are wallbme's boat was not even built using marine grade plywood, as few manufacturers use it due to cost. In fact, there are no regulations stating that pleasure boats must be built from marine grade plywood. Outside of fuel, motor, electric and floatation, regulations required by the USCG, its pretty wide open when it comes to the pleasure boat market and what materials are used to build the hull and deck of a boat.

Many yrs ago I looked at a cheap cabin cruiser, the cabin top was ply with formica, the boat was run down, engine (Mercury) had a cracked block etc so I didn't bother with it, but I thought the formica did a decent job in its time, it wasnt built to last and didn't... but probably saved a ton of finish work when first built.
 

ondarvr

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Apr 6, 2005
Messages
11,527
Re: Marine Plywood

Just a couple comments...


"Replace "resin" in the above with "poly resin". Epoxy will not crack even if flexed (at least within a reasonable amount). Even if PT ply does not rot, it still absorbs moisture, gets heavier (bad for planing boats) and still swells and can warp, which can crack fiberglass. It also releases moisture back into the boat when it's drying eg. over the winter, which can give you mold or mildew when you least expect it in other places nearby."



Epoxy will crack even without flexing, using glass with it is the only reliable way to have a chance in it keeping water out.

I don't see an issue with PT, any fastener on a boat should be made of SS, plus the old style PT is still available if you want use it.
 

erikgreen

Captain
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Jan 8, 2007
Messages
3,105
Re: Marine Plywood

Hmm.. under what circumstances will epoxy crack, and how long will it take?

News to me :)
 

wallybme

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Joined
Dec 21, 2008
Messages
161
Re: Marine Plywood

Are there treated and non treatedmarine pllywood? I checked today and one place had marine plywood with six layers but not treated. Another has what they called treated marine plywood. Of course the one without treatment is 3/4" thick. The other is 1/2" Would you have to treat the untreated?
 
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