Is there ever a potential that someone can own water?

[POINTER94]

Try to keep this short, if a cruise line permanently moors their fleet on two adjacent finger piers, they do not own the rights to the entire area? Just the slips..<br /><br />Just wondering.

 

[mellowyellow]

Re: Is there ever a potential that someone can own water?

don't know pointer, but my father in law had to<br />pay the city of long beach tax for the land under<br />the water where he docked his 37' troller.

 

[18rabbit]

Re: Is there ever a potential that someone can own water?

In theory, you cannot own the ocean, but the seabed may be controlled by local and state entities.<br /><br />In California, the only city that owns seabed real estate is Pacific Grove, a city between Monterey and Carmel By The Sea. When the city was chartered it was set up with an agreement with the state to own the sea floor out to a depth of 60-ft.<br /><br />Except for federally control irrigation and drinking water supplies, states law will determine who has water rights to fresh water.<br /><br />In California, any fresh water that can be navigated cannot be privately owned. If you have a river or stream that flows across your property, you cannot block access to it, via water, to boaters. You may own the land under the river/stream but not the water in the river/stream…if it can be navigated.<br /><br />MY – I don’t know what’s up with Long Beach. If they developed their harbor maybe they created new seabed that they own?!?!? Or maybe the tax was in reference to the size of the seabed under the slip, but not actually for the seabed itself?!?!?

 

[salty87]

Re: Is there ever a potential that someone can own water?

i would imagine security is tight nowadays, owned or not.

 

[mellowyellow]

Re: Is there ever a potential that someone can own water?

I "think" the tax was in reference to the size of<br />the seabed under the slip, but not actually for<br />the seabed itself wabbit... would have to ask him<br />2 b sure.<br />city was looking for money to do needed harbor<br />maint. he said. infrastructure down there is<br />REALLY old and badly needs re-done.

 

[neumanns]

Re: Is there ever a potential that someone can own water?

Pointer if you would care to elaberate I would sure listen. Sounds interesting. Even a link to any articles about the situation. Toufgh to tell what there claim may be without more details. There is some precidence and ongoing interpitation here concerning a landowners right to keep boats a set distance from docks and private beaches here although you are still allowed to cast into the area. Are we talking land, water, boat traffic or what?

 

[POINTER94]

Re: Is there ever a potential that someone can own water?

Ah lunch,<br /><br />Neumans,<br /><br />I was on my first run of the year on Lake Geneva and I am chartering one of these classic, turn of the century yacht's to get married on this summer and the girlfriend wanted a picture of the specific boat. It was tied up so I motored in and the captain indicated that these docks were not to tie up on and you could tell he wanted me to leave. In no mood for an arguement, I took the picture and moved on. (I never want to get stressed out on the little things on my time off) But I have always understood that water (lakes) are a public trust and cannot be owned. Like I said there was no issue and I moved on, I also have seen poor boat handling on this lake and I can appreciate the capt.'s concern so I moved along without comment.<br /><br />The value of these yacht's can probably not be accurately established. All turn of the century wooden excursion type lake boats in the 40-65ft length. A couple of them steam. I wouldn't be real comfortable with someone getting a little to close if they were mine. But, and this was not the case, I would not threaten them to get them to leave.<br /><br />I was just interested in the laws, and my understanding is that nobody can own water.<br /><br />Is this the worst most discombobulated post of all times? Sorry but got to go back to work, try and fix later.....

 

[LubeDude]

Re: Is there ever a potential that someone can own water?

I know that in Oregon, that the state owns all bodies of water. If you had a small lake on your property and I had a helicopter place my boat in the middle of it, you could not make me leave. I couldnt get out of the boat and touch your land, but I could motor around all I wanted.<br /><br />Interesting thing here on the lake I live on. It is concidered Navagable. That means that when Oregon became a state that the outlet was used as a commercial passage to the ocean and they used it to haul freight to the ocean from the lake, Timber, fish, etc. Because of this, the state owns the land under the water up to the normal high water mark. This lake fluctuates 14 feet every year from low to high. In the summer, that means that anyone can come up in front of your house on the lake, pitch a tent and camp out, and there is nothing you can do about it. This is kept a secret and most people do not know about it. THANK GOD!!!

 

[neumanns]

Re: Is there ever a potential that someone can own water?

I think your right, he was just nervous but proably unjustified in threatining you. Conversley it may be he has legal grounds and just poor taste in handeling the situation.<br /><br />This is an area I think we will see a lot of discussion on and perhaps some legal wrangelling in the years to come. Currently Docks are considered private property here, With laws as they are you are allowed "use and enjoyment" of such property. One of the main points of contention is bass fisherman gliding up and flipping lures under docks. The question being does this detract from your use and enjoyment of the dock even though the water underneath is public. So far there has been much discusion but little decided, it appears they could be headed towards a set distance a boat must stand off. For the beach owners upset there is a loophole they are using. If you own a beach you are allowed to mark off a set area for swimming witch is off limits to watercraft and fishing, yet presumably open for public use. They are designating there swim areas as there dock areas therbye enforcing no fishing under the dock...All Legally. This is an area sportsman and lakeshore owners are headed for further conflict. <br /><br />Then there also may be the possability that a vessal as large as you speak may be covered under diffrent provisions, who knows. My guess is unjustified.

 

[roscoe]

Re: Is there ever a potential that someone can own water?

The last I heard, all waterways in the state of WI are owned by the state, including 3' of shoreline adjacent to the water. Don't know how this is applied to docks or boat houses.

 

[Fly Rod]

Re: Is there ever a potential that someone can own water?

In Massachusetts it is possible for a water front property owner to own to the low mean water mark!! therefore his land is under water at high tide!!!<br /><br />And the State owns from the low mean water mark to the three mile buffer that then becomes the federal EEZ!!!

 

[18rabbit]

Re: Is there ever a potential that someone can own water?

This is kept a secret and most people do not know about it. THANK GOD!!!<br />

Well, it's not a secret anymore, LD.

 

[18rabbit]

Re: Is there ever a potential that someone can own water?

If you had a small lake on your property and I had a helicopter place my boat in the middle of it, you could not make me leave. I couldnt get out of the boat and touch your land, but I could motor around all I wanted.<br />

This is interesting. It is not legal anywhere in the US to ‘land lock’ a person or their property. Originally intended to prevent people from being kept out of their own property, I would presume it could apply to you and your boat, as well. If so, once your boat in on the lake, you could legally cross any and all land you needed to get to and/or from your boat at any time it’s in that lake. LD - try it and let us know how it goes. <br /><br />--------<br /><br />California is in the long slow process of re-acquiring all land that is within 5000-ft of the highest high tide. There are two exceptions, Sea Ranch (above San Francisco) and Malibu (where Bay Watch lives). If your family owns property within 5000-ft of the high tide mark, you may not develop it, you may not change title, you may not sell it (except to the state…and they won’t buy it) and no one can inherit it. Upon the death of the owner, the state will pay the estate’s heirs the “fair” value of the property…minus the 50% inheritance tax I image.<br /><br />Problem: people are left holding land they can’t do anything with, the “fair” value is in the toilet because no one can do anything with the land, and taxes were assessed at a rate when the land could have been developed so they artificially high. Either you sell to the state now or you pay a tax bill every year that may be in excess of the current “fair” value of the land. And the state will not buy the land…why should they? The state is going to get the land when the owner dies and in the meantime they are pocketing a ton of cash every year in property taxes.<br /><br />On the other hand, California has some wicked cool coastal access laws. Basically, you can do whatever you need to get to the coast as long as you don’t destroy anyone’s property. Coastal farms usually put in gates and paths and marked signs so the public can access the coast without having to walk across their veggies.<br /><br />There is some fencing that is exempted and you can’t cross it The costal access law sunset while the Republicans held both sides of the state legislature. They held back on renewing coastal access until some key campaign contributors had erected fences, then they renewed.

 

[ebbtide176]

Re: Is there ever a potential that someone can own water?

the captain indicated that these docks were not to tie up on and you could tell he wanted me to leave

i don't know the regs either pointer, but just wanted to mention that we motor & fish around lots of dock & marinas, but realize we cannot tie up to them- personal property. i think you could have anchored right there, told the guy to smile for the camera and been fine. <br /><br />just a couple of weeks ago i caught/ate my 1st walleye. the marina docks had big 'private property -do not tie up or stand on docks' signs posted on the ends. but they didn't say a word to the boats anchored just beside them all night, while fishing

 

[neumanns]

Re: Is there ever a potential that someone can own water?

18rabbit...It may not be legal to landlock property there but it certianly is legal here, and becoming more prevelant by the year. Used to be you could force acess to almost anything but it is getting harder by the day in the courts. As a matter prudence if you purchase property here that requires crossing someone else to get to it you had better get a recorded easment in the deed or you may well get screwed anytime the owner decides to cut you off. Even if you thought the "road" garanteed acess.<br /><br />On the california/5000ft thing, I find that questianable. Last year when I was on Newport Beach there were beachfront homes for sale all over, and none of them were more than 1000 ft from the tide line (water)let alone a mile. Unless things have drastically changed since I visited last march. Is there anywhere I can read more about this?

 

[18rabbit]

Re: Is there ever a potential that someone can own water?

Neumanns – I failed in a quick web search for any organizations still fighting this. I will need to ask some family members. My family is caught up in this. Been going on for 20+ years…pretty much everyone gave up long ago. A rep for the state told us the plan is to reclaim the whole coastline back to about a mile, with the exceptions I mentioned. There may be something in ‘homesteading’ that protects homeowners??? <br /><br />There is something called the California Coastal Trail. It is being developed for people with entirely too much free time on their hands. They will be able to walk along and follow and watch the whale’s migration from Oregon to Mexico. I do not recall any mention of a “trail” at the land grab meetings.<br /><br />There are hotels and homes all along the California coast. I don’t know what the plan is for them. San Francisco isn’t very big and has water on 3 sides. Cut back 1 mile and there isn’t much left. Concerning just the SF Bay Area, millions of people would have to be relocated. Other than Sea Ranch and Malibu, I don’t know of any on going or new residential, coastal developments. <br /><br />About access to your property; it is not legal to land lock anyone or anyone’s property ANYWHERE in the United States. It’s federal, not state law. Will the courts uphold the law??? Have I not said before, “the courts are corrupt beyond belief!” I still think we should get LD to try it. <br /><br />Gov’t land grabs seem to be picking up speed. I feel sorry for anyone that owns property within eyesight of any gov’t park entity.

 

[neumanns]

Re: Is there ever a potential that someone can own water?

I thought "legal" infered; how the courts interpeted the statue's (law's)... presuming corruption, the courts ruling (interputation) still stands until turned over in a higher court.

 

[18rabbit]

Re: Is there ever a potential that someone can own water?

I retrospect, you are right. It is inappropriate to say “the law is this” or “the law is that”. What should be said is, “in theory, …”.<br /><br />I have read some hilarious, if not sad commentary on the court’s re-defining commonly used words and applying those new definitions to specific cases to justify an agenda otherwise prevented by the very law referenced. Irrespective of what is actually written, previous court decision, or any intent on the part of the legislature, I think we’ve arrived at the point where the real definition of any law now resides somewhere between what the black robed oligarchy say it is and what you can get actually away with.<br /><br />When I consider how corrupt the courts are it seems to me we have become a virtually lawless, but passive society. Perhaps it is because we allow that oligarchy to legislate from the bench with impunity. There is no way for anyone to know how to apply the law without challenge or how it will be interpreted if challenged. There is little to no consistency in interpretations, applications or definitions coming from the courts.<br /><br />This is deserving of it’s own thread.

 

[POINTER94]

Re: Is there ever a potential that someone can own water?

Hey, <br /><br />It is deserving of alot more than just a thread.

 

[neumanns]

Re: Is there ever a potential that someone can own water?

Many a well wrote law has been contourted so far beyond orriginal intent and spirit of the law that they are no longer recognizable, and that is the reality.........In theory......I think!