Interesting article about tank condensation

paultjohnson

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Re: Interesting article about tank condensation

Huh..... vedy intewesting
 

sublauxation

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Re: Interesting article about tank condensation

I don't know if this is comparing apples to apples but I refill my own inkjet cartridges. I have a 1 quart plastic bottle of ink that stays in the same place all the time sealed relatively tight. Right now it's about 1/8 full. When I looked at it yesterday there were about 15 big drops of water clinging to the top sides of the bottle and water streaks down the side. Seemed like condensation to me, and in a pretty controlled environment.
 

sqbtr

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Re: Interesting article about tank condensation

On a website hawking his books

He starts the article with

The basis of my belief or assumption is that:
:confused:
 

Tahorover

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Re: Interesting article about tank condensation

I don't know if this is comparing apples to apples but I refill my own inkjet cartridges. I have a 1 quart plastic bottle of ink that stays in the same place all the time sealed relatively tight. Right now it's about 1/8 full. When I looked at it yesterday there were about 15 big drops of water clinging to the top sides of the bottle and water streaks down the side. Seemed like condensation to me, and in a pretty controlled environment.
yea but your ink is water based.....
 

Art Bernard

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Re: Interesting article about tank condensation

I always store my boats for the winter with dry tanks. Your gonna have condensation in a sealed tank irreguardless unless it is compleatly toped off, but part of my pre-season maintenance is a full fuel system flush, tanks included. Now those of us who have really big boats may not have that option and a guy i know does what he calls a slow drain on his tanks. Basically he is slowly pumping(so as not to stir up and mix the tank) out the bottom inch or two of his tanks to remove the accumulated water and contaminated fuel than he runs several fuel/water sepperators. Water is always a problem with marine tanks and I believe that being a bit anal and taking a few extra steps is better than sitting dead in the water way offshore:)

Art
 

H20Rat

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Re: Interesting article about tank condensation

For that matter, and for whatever it's worth, ethanol is essentially water based too.

I wouldn't exactly call it water based... It is a short hydrocarbon molecule with an oxygen thrown in for good measure, with that oxygen having a single bond to a hydrogen.
 

Triton II

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Re: Interesting article about tank condensation

We always had to refuel our aircraft to full during my days in the Air Force. Two reasons:

1. To minimise fuel vapour in the tanks which was an explosive risk, and ...

2. To minimise condensation and the possibility of the fuel's contamination by water, which is very dangerous in a fighter as the water can quickly freeze and cause flameouts. The fuel was laced with FSII, a freezing inhibitor and antibacterial agent, nevertheless, we still had to fill 'em up.

Obviously boats are not jet fighters, and even a very large pleasure craft has much smaller tanks than the 7.4 tonnes we carried in a full Tornado, but the condensation risk is still present, as is the explosion risk - even more so in a tank full of high octane petrol.

There has been much debate on this subject, and it seems both the "store empty", the "store half full" and the "store full" camps have their reasons for doing want they do. Each to his own as they say, and thanks for the link to the article Superbenk.

TII
 

444

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Re: Interesting article about tank condensation

I've stored my quads, snowmobiles, cars and boat with tanks 1/2 full and never had a problem. Granted I do have a water seperater on my newest boat.
 

Home Cookin'

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Re: Interesting article about tank condensation

I've read arguments on both sides and conclude that full is better, especially in humid areas or when and where the temps swing a lot daily/weekly. Tanks breath like a lung as the fuel expands and contracts, breathing in humid air. the ethanol pulls that water into the gas.

It seems like the guys who have fewer problems are the ones in the cold northern midwest. On the Atlantic coast it's a constant problem.
 

wifisher

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Re: Interesting article about tank condensation

From the article:

Research produced the following values for the maximum amount of liquid water in air at the following temperatures:

30C/86F 30 grams/cubic meter
20C/50F 17 grams/cubic meter
10C/13F 9 grams/cubic meter

I stopped reading at this point because:
20C=68F
10C=50F

If his research can't convert temperatures properly. I do not put much faith in it.:facepalm:
 

dingbat

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Re: Interesting article about tank condensation

Everyone forgets that condensation and evaporation cycles are in equilibrium. All the condensation would evaporated in the next cycle.

If you filled a 1 pint jar with E-10 and sat it in your garage in 80 degree heat for 8 weeks, would the E10 have absorbed a little water, a lot of water, no water at all, or would the jar be empty?
 

sasto

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Re: Interesting article about tank condensation

Everyone forgets that condensation and evaporation cycles are in equilibrium. All the condensation would evaporated in the next cycle.

If you filled a 1 pint jar with E-10 and sat it in your garage in 80 degree heat for 8 weeks, would the E10 have absorbed a little water, a lot of water, no water at all, or would the jar be empty?

Good point.....dingbat!
 

rickryder

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Re: Interesting article about tank condensation

I always store my things with a full tank..... never had a problem with water in the tank....
 

sublauxation

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Re: Interesting article about tank condensation

I wouldn't exactly call it water based... It is a short hydrocarbon molecule with an oxygen thrown in for good measure, with that oxygen having a single bond to a hydrogen.

Water based is a little extreme, but it's 100% water soluble meaning there will be water mixed in with it, thanks to that little OH bonded to the short chain carbon. They intermingle happily together at most any concentration

A better example would probably be the water that condensed on my Evinrude oil reservoir. There is no way water leaked into it, it was condensation. If it condenses in my oil reservoir it will condense in my gas tank. Whereas oil does not like water, ethanol does.

Water added to ethanol makes for phase separation from longer chain hydrocarbons such as gasoline. That is also definitive

Condensation and phase separation do occur with no doubt, the only doubt is the degree of it and the effect it has on an engine, and that's where the debate lies, and one I know little about.
 

Home Cookin'

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Re: Interesting article about tank condensation

I think the error here is that evaporation and condensation would not be in equilibrium, where the water that accumulates in the tank settles to the bottom, and therefore can't evaporate. It's my understanding, too, that the ethanol pulls the water out of the air (as well as what may be suspended in the gasoline), creating a bigger puddle at the bottom than non-ethanol. Also, if moist air is sucked into the tank through the vent, condenses on the top and sides, the moisture would not be expelled back out through the tiny vent hole with evaporated gasoline or air expelled by the fuel expanding.
In other words, your jar is not similar enough to a boat tank to be comparable. Try a plastic bottle with a small hole in the cap.

To answer your question directly, I bet you find less gasoline and a layer of water at the bottom. Even if the volume is the same, it's the fact that there's water in there that's the problem.

Finally, and I have not verified this but was told, that one of the features/functions of the stabilizers is to create a barrier between the surface of the gasoline and the air in the tank, to prevent the ethanol from "grabbing" the moisture--like an oil slick. Makes sense.

But I'm no scientist, just a boater, so I don't claim to know what's right; I just follow what seems to make sense in my judgment. And for this issue, it's to try to keep your gasoline from exposure to air.

Everyone forgets that condensation and evaporation cycles are in equilibrium. All the condensation would evaporated in the next cycle.

If you filled a 1 pint jar with E-10 and sat it in your garage in 80 degree heat for 8 weeks, would the E10 have absorbed a little water, a lot of water, no water at all, or would the jar be empty?
 

Tahorover

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Re: Interesting article about tank condensation

Water based is a little extreme, but it's 100% water soluble meaning there will be water mixed in with it, thanks to that little OH bonded to the short chain carbon. They intermingle happily together at most any concentration

A better example would probably be the water that condensed on my Evinrude oil reservoir. There is no way water leaked into it, it was condensation. If it condenses in my oil reservoir it will condense in my gas tank. Whereas oil does not like water, ethanol does.

Water added to ethanol makes for phase separation from longer chain hydrocarbons such as gasoline. That is also definitive

Condensation and phase separation do occur with no doubt, the only doubt is the degree of it and the effect it has on an engine, and that's where the debate lies, and one I know little about.

Are you sure it's water in your oil reservoir and not some fraction with a low vapour density?
 

sublauxation

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Re: Interesting article about tank condensation

Everyone forgets that condensation and evaporation cycles are in equilibrium. All the condensation would evaporated in the next cycle.

If you filled a 1 pint jar with E-10 and sat it in your garage in 80 degree heat for 8 weeks, would the E10 have absorbed a little water, a lot of water, no water at all, or would the jar be empty?

I'm not trying to call anybody out, It's been a long time since I've been in chem so I'm posting this more as a question than anything else.

When water reaches ethanol in gas the two interact and the water mixture settles to the bottom where it can't leave with a condensation cycle because it's protected by the actual gas above. New air comes and goes with differing levels of humidity but still interacting with the ethanol in the fuel mixture, and when it does it too will sink to the bottom. Some components within the gas itself will evaporate off, so eventually you'd be left with a mixture of ethanol, water and some additives.

I wrote this over an hour at work so in short I agree with home cookin

@Tahorover...no I'm not sure, I dipped my finger in and took a couple drops I could reach. It looked like water but I wasn't really up for a taste test, been there done that. So it may not have been water but it looked and felt like it with no weird smell.
 

superbenk

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Re: Interesting article about tank condensation

All very interesting responses. Good discussion (& surprisingly civil!). Note that the article is from 2004. That may have some bearing on the ethanol arguments above. I'm not sure (can't remember) when E10 really started being pervasive. Also, the article may be focusing exclusively on non-E10 gas and/or diesel fuel. The site is "yachtsurvey.com" - perhaps there's a different slant when referring to larger vessels?

Just some more food for thought.
 
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