In defence of the poor

Tinkrrr · Sep 10, 2005

There have been some very harsh and, in my view, very unfair opinions expressed on this board lately about poor people, notably those who didn't evacuate New Orleans (ignoring the fact that many of them couldnt evacuate anyway). The constant theme is that the poor deserve everything they get because they're too mean or stupid or criminal to help themselves. I've rarely met anyone poor who liked it or who didn't want to be better off. Whether people had the ability or motivation to change their circumstance might be a different issue, but sometimes people who have been ground down by life don't have a lot of get up and go. Sometimes it doesn't matter if they do, because the odds are so far against them that they're stuck where they are. Some realities are: - Kids generally wont turn out too well if brought up by unsatisfactory (drunk, violent, drug addicted, child sex abusing, serial de facto partner, and other undesirable things) parents who don't give their kids a stable base in life; who dont value education; and who don't instil good values in their kids. We can predict that some kids probably wont turn out well even before they're born, if we know who the parents are. But when these sometimes unwanted or accidental kids get to be problems in primary or secondary school, or later in life, these pre-ordained human disasters are required by some people to be fully responsible for their own actions and are judged by the rigid standards of people who never had any of those problems or who wont make any allowances for the history and circumstances of others. - Lots of things happen to people in life that see them end up where they don't want to be. Divorce, unemployment, bankruptcy, war service, car accidents, work accidents, their children dying, physical or nervous breakdown. Things have a habit of compounding: lose a job; fragile marriage collapses; missus disappears with the kids who were the main purpose of your life; lose your house; missus chasing you for child support but won't let you see the kids; drink too much; police trouble or car or work accident; can't get a job or can't hold one. Or the woman trying to raise kids on welfare because her former husband wont pay any child support while hes working black money cash jobs and living the good life with virtually no traceable income on which to base child support. She cant get a job because shes stuck with the 9 month old kid hubby wont pay for and nobody but her to care for his and her 3 kids. - Some people get slotted into categories they can't escape. A simple personal example. Forty years ago I worked a range of jobs around the bush, mostly in (sheep) shearing sheds. We were the lowest of the low, except for the circus people, who got blamed ahead of us for the burglaries the locals did when shearers or the circus came into town. I've been in Aboriginal camps on river banks in the '60's that make the worst conditions of America's Southern blacks in decrepit shacks at the same time look like paradise. To my discredit I was there on a couple of occasions with grog seeking women. I've seen Aboriginal women offer themselves to me and men I was with for the change on the bar from a beer and I've seen men accept the offer. These events cement the notion on both sides about where people fit into society and their relative worth and status. They lead to the disgraceful jokes I told and laughed at then, and for a time after. They lead to the belief that some people are worth less than others. They allow us then, and now, to say that these are able bodied people who can get a job any time they like. A problem is that some employers in country towns I was in the 60s had been down to the Abo camp on the riverbanks with a bottle of port and a bulge in the pants. I know that because I was there with some of them. They wouldnt employ people like that, because Abos were scum whod shag anyone for a bottle of port. Not the sort of people youd want to be dealing with your customers. These attitudes live on in less vivid ways, even among people who have no knowledge of such events and attitudes but who have absorbed the modern distilled attitudes from others that these are worthless people who live on welfare because thats all they want. In more subtle ways these attitudes permeate the attitudes of many people to others who are products of circumstances of birth and other things beyond their control. Blaming the victims also cements the superior position of the speaker: I am more worthy than them and deserve the good I receive as my due for being worthy, while they are less worthy than me and deserve the bad they earn as their due for being worthless. . Unlike some of the people slamming the poor, I dont profess to be a Christian although I think there is self-evident merit in much of Christs teaching. But if I was a Christian Id be embarrassed if I condemned the poor when Christ, himself the model of poverty and the champion of the poor against oppression and exploitation, said: -"Let each one do just as he has purposed in his heart; not grudgingly or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver." Corinthians 9:7: - "But whoever has the world's goods, and beholds his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth." 1 John 3:17 "Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." Matthew 19:21 "For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich." 2 Corinthians 8:9, And Im well aware of labourers being worthy of their hire and of the injunction against supporting bludgers, which I share: We command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching you received from us we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat." We hear that some among you are idle such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and earn the bread they eat. 2 Thessalonians 3: 6-12 The same sentiments are to be found in Judaism and Islam, not least because they share a lot of the same texts and attitudes. The same as just about every reasonable person in the world probably does, regardless of religion. As for having a modern understanding of the poor, I dont think anybody has put it better or more eloquently than Jason J in this post at http://www.iboats.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=010928#000026 O'reilly is correct that children need to see what is happening with our poor to help better motivate them to want to succeed. That is only part of the equation though. The reality is working your butt off and getting a degree does not guarantee you anything anymore. There is not an infinite amount of high earning jobs, and even moderate earning jobs are limited. There are counltess amounts of well educated people working grunt jobs because there are countless well educated people. College is great if you are specialized in a field that there is a high demand for. A general degree in whatever only proves you know how to waste a few years delaying the inevitable. What children and young adults need to learn is to decide what they want, and to strive for it, but to also realize they will have to work the grunt jobs to maybe get where they want. We all want our kids to do well, but someone has to pick up the trash. To just tell poor people to get off their arse and get a job is easier said than done. They are faced with the economical fact that most readily available jobs do not pay all of their expenses. Why should they even bother when they know they can get more on welfare? What would you do if you were a single mother who knew she would be placing her kids in less than optimal circumstances by working a menial job when she can just go on the dole? Lets face it. Day care, food, clothes, fuel, housing cannot be paid for with the low wage jobs that are out there. It is easy to blame the poor for being poor. The reality is they are given only bad choices. Yes, in my mind, they should all strive for employment. I am not sticking up for those who choose to stay on welfare, I am just stating facts about what the poor are faced with. I grew up in that situation, where the family went through hard times. My mother made some bad choices, things went bad, but we recovered and pulled out of the misery. Not everyone can do that though. We did it only because the kids grew up and left, leaving only me and my mother. If there would have been more kids, it would have never worked. As far as I am concerned, when it comes to the subject of poverty, you have no opinion unless you have been there. I grow weary of people who have no idea what it is like to go without food *****ing about the lazy poor. If your idea of being poor is only having one car, then shut the f##k up, you don't know squat. If you have ever LIVED out of a car, then you have a basis for comment. In a perfect sunshiny happy world, everybody would work and there would be no poor, but guess what, it will never be like that. You will alway have the rich, and the people who work for the rich. How the hell would anything get done if there wasn't people out there to do the crap jobs? Do you really think society could function when the garbage man makes as much as a lawyer? Get a clue people, society only works when there is poor people.

rodbolt · Sep 10, 2005

Re: In defence of the poor

I am with ya there. seems our fearless undaunted leader of the freeworld has a plan now for assisiting those doing menial work with hammers,shovels and sweat. I understand he just signed a bill that would allow contractors to pay less than minimum wage to the unskilled and skilled workforce during the rebuild. I will bet money the contractor in the rich hoods wont lower the contruction costs. and I will bet they will pay the absolute minimum they can. with the amount of folks unemployed in that area you will see conditions revert back to the company store mentality of 100 years ago. at a time of need for labor our hero does this. I hope its not true. we will see.

Tinkrrr · Sep 10, 2005

Re: In defence of the poor

Originally posted by rodbolt: seems our fearless undaunted leader of the freeworld has a plan now for assisiting those doing menial work with hammers,shovels and sweat.

Why is it that the people who extol the virtues of manual labour usually have no experience of it? And the people who have actually done the hard stuff usually dream of nothing more than getting away from it? A bit like the politicians and other immaculate TV hairdos who go all dewy in the eyes talking about things like farming, when the dopey ba$tards have no idea what it feels like being hit by a strand of fencing wire that's sprung out of the strainer or being kicked in the nuts by a cow at 4 a.m. in a cold and wet dairy or having both knees broken backwards being butted by a ram. Not to mention just the usual stuff like big splinters under the skin while risking losing a limb feeding wood into an unguarded saw run off the PTO on a tractor just so you've got heat and cooking in winter.

Tinkrrr · Sep 10, 2005

Re: In defence of the poor

Originally posted by rodbolt: with the amount of folks unemployed in that area you will see conditions revert back to the company store mentality of 100 years ago. at a time of need for labor our hero does this. I hope its not true. we will see.

For the young 'uns who don't know about the company store, here's Tennessee Ernie Ford's 1955 version in 16 tons, which pretty much covers how company stores worked. Pity if you don't know the melody because this is a classic. Sixteen Tons Some people say a man is made outta mud A poor man's made outta muscle and blood Muscle and blood and skin and bones A mind that's a-weak and a back that's strong You load sixteen tons, what do you get? Another day older and deeper in debt Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go I owe my soul to the company store I was born one mornin' when the sun didn't shine I picked up my shovel and I walked to the mine I loaded sixteen tons of number nine coal And the straw boss said "Well, a-bless my soul" You load sixteen tons, what do you get? Another day older and deeper in debt Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go I owe my soul to the company store I was born one mornin', it was drizzlin' rain Fightin' and trouble are my middle name I was raised in the canebrake by an ol' mama lion Cain't no-a high-toned woman make me walk the line You load sixteen tons, what do you get? Another day older and deeper in debt Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go I owe my soul to the company store If you see me comin', better step aside A lotta men didn't, a lotta men died One fist of iron, the other of steel If the right one don't a-get you, then the left one will You load sixteen tons, what do you get? Another day older and deeper in debt Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go I owe my soul to the company store

Skinnywater · Sep 10, 2005

Re: In defence of the poor

A welcome post Tinkrrr, A couple other things I've witnessed through life experiences. Being dirt poor and raised in a rural environment is much different, and actually much easier, than being dirt poor and raised in a urban environment. Those that have never been dirt poor or even lived pay check to pay check, wouldn't know that they don't know. It even is more implied. Those that weren't born black will never fathom the daily negative influences that are laid on those who were born to that color. A lot that was written here on DC concerning the disaster in N.O. that was completely reactionary, premature, odd and callous. My own personal opinion, wrong or right,is that the degree of criticism, the degree of harshness right here on iboats was tempered by racism. It ranged from mostly mild, to moderate and a few that were pretty blatant. The most blatant came from obvious ignorant statements, spoken by ignorant minds. That is the only comfort. The more intelligent minds were plenty capable of the more mild forms of racist influences in thier statement though. Almost like they knew better but couldn't help it anyhow. I think the media did an almost perfect job of stirring the pot again. But it continues to surprise me the amount of people and the type of people that are so easily influenced by the media games. I'm fully aware of the influences and problems that the "cultivated" poor in this country face. The reality that much of it is negative or distasteful. However, in the middle of a huge national disaster where many of them are floating belly up is hardly the time to be so critical of them. (Edited for spelling corrections only)

KRS · Sep 10, 2005

Re: In defence of the poor

I think most of it came from the acts of violence and looting we saw, that can raise primal emotions in the viewers... which is precisely what the media wants.

txswinner · Sep 10, 2005

Re: In defence of the poor

Wow, what a powerful thread. So many do not think through with such open vision. My hat is off to each of you and you are so on the point.

rodbolt · Sep 10, 2005

Re: In defence of the poor

tnkrr we calls them spoon fed thoroughbreds. I grew up in a family of 7 in pascagoula MS and Grand Bay AL. both rather poor areas. had to work to help support the family after my dad left, 4 sisters and me. helped some of them with college money but never went myself. some say I was talented I just thank god for the ability to read and comprhend what I read. thats why I can command 75 dollars an hour and stay backlogged 6 weeks. but it wasnt easy getting here. my body is about wracked with the abuse of 2 jobs and 7 days a week for some years. plus the amount of neglect on my part. however when the navy medically retired me with some arthritic conditions I decided to be the best I could be. so back to various trade schools and such I went. spent any off time taking things apaert, studying manuals and relying on past experience. while some of my buddies turned into porch monkeys after divorce and kids and all the rest life toss's ya I taught myself. it comes down to self reliance. some teach it to themselves and others never learn. does not make them bad folks just needy folks. but those of us that ever had to wake the morning before the rooster crowed usually know how to keep ourselves alive. and to you city folk a rooster dont crow at daybreak. they start tuning up before 4 am. most my sisters went on to get masters in their fields. one got married and dropped out 3 years into it. all are doing ok but hate their jobs. my job is absolutly wonderful. I set the hours and I set the amount I do. its always outside and everyday its different. so far I have been certified in suzuki,yamaha,mercury,mariner,force,mercruiser,volvo penta and a few automotive in my early years. never made it to OMC school but it was always the backbone of our work. so while I have pity and compassion for the poor folks losses, I dont have much respect. its the same when I ask someone if they have ever been in the military. if they reply no cause I could not handle someone telling me what to do I instanly write them off as a loser and so far I have never been wrong. but having lived through a number of these wind events I can tell you the dark side of human nature is terrible. in N O it was concentrated. the very few make the rest of us look bad. very bad. americans are not like that look at all the private SAR teams that were on the ground while state local and federal folks were hopping up and down but doing nothing more than pushing paper. its cause they never did much before and when hit with a task they can do noting. lots of book learning but cant hit a lick. but if yee haaa actually has a plan to suspend minimum wage you will see a company store situation all the songs aside it actually happened. people would work for the company, usually coal mining, and draw food and family supplies at the company store to be taken out of the paycheck. however the store raised prices so high that at weeks end the man was further in debt. was disgraceful but many made millions. it was about as disgraceful as bubba's gran pappy making a profit trading with the Nazis all during WWII and racking up the big bucks.

deputydawg · Sep 10, 2005

Re: In defence of the poor

I do not condemn the poor. I do speak out against those who abuse the wellfare system. Like it or not there are people out there who go on wellfare and will never attemptg to get a job. They will apply for jobs to satisfy their case workers, but if offered the job will find excuses to not accept. The excuses are all the same, my car quit so Icouldn't get to the interview or to work on time, they expect me to work for too little money, they expected me to work 9 or 10 hours a day, they expected me to blah blah blah. The excuses are all the same and they always come down to blaming the employer. Like my car quit and I couldn't get to work yesterday so I was fired, so what if I didn't call to let them know, they should understand because I was working on my car all day. I have heard these excuses as both a supervisor and in meeting with the wellfare cases. Most of the wellfare people we encounter these days have learned helplessness. They have watched generations before them sit around complaining and not taking jobs seriously. How can they learn a good work ethic when nobody teaches them? One was is to look at the rest of society, those working for a living. When they do look at working people, they are filled with jealousy. Even when they look at people like me, working several jobs but still dirt poor, they have nothing but jealousy for the few things I do have. They also make fun of me (it has happened many times)for working myself so hard on 2 or 3 jobs just to stay afloat. These are the people I myself speak of. I have little respect for their work ethic. Just being poor is in my opinion not a subject to use to judge my neighbor. All of my friends are poor. The poor people I knwo are all honest hard working family orientated people that I am proud to call friends. They are my people so to speak. In my reply to a recent post about the wellfare system, I won't condemn anyone on wellfare IF they use it as it was meant to be. If they use it as a hand up not a hand out to use a phrase from years ago. I myself am using some of the benefits, and it kills me every time I need to do it. I should be able to provide for my family but I just can't squeeze another job into my life right now. My relatives have been on programs, but used them to get educated or to get ahead in the world, then got off of them. These people have my respect, to be ableto swaallow their pride for the good of their families. I have no dislike for the poor people, hard workers, ditch diggers, iron scrappers, whatever as long as they are honest people. It is those who get on the programs and refuse to try, or make excuses not to try then blame the world for keeping them down. It is very hard to get up once you are down, but it is possible to do with the right mentality. I think we should go back to the 30's. If you are able physically to work you should be required to do like the old WPA days. Build roads, dig ditches, build public buildings etc. for your wellfare check. But that would be discrimination or something awful expecting people to work. And that would be taking away from the coorperate contractors that build these roads and buildings. But I think that back then that system also had it's abusers. I must say I am poor and proud of it. I am proud of it because I can honestly say I have worked, sweated, and scraped for everything I own.

rodbolt · Sep 10, 2005

Re: In defence of the poor

oh my god me and DD agree

DD wish I had a dollar for every person that came in just so I would sign their sheet saying they "looked" for a job. I lived in some projects over the years was amazing how much side money was made while collecting various bennies. was also amazing how many like me never attempted to collect bennies. but its hard to believe some of the excuses for missing work I have gotten. even harder when you have to go in front of the employment board with your reason why they should not draw against your unemployment insurance then they are mad at you for them getting denied. thats why I have no employees anymore. it takes more time to go apply for bennies than just going to work and getting out of the hood. some folk will always be on the dole. some folk are actually borderline retarded. took some military entrance exams where almost half scored just above retarded. these folk still gotta eat and still procreate. it does not make them bad nor good just makes it hard on some of the rest of us.

tommays · Sep 10, 2005

Re: In defence of the poor

i think the biggest thing people here take for granted is just how much smarter they are than many other people i have two handicapped brothers my younger brother has about a 70 IQ give or take and will never do much better than carry bags at the hotel in Rehoboth Beach, Delaware or push shoping carts at the home depot now the bigest crack he falls into is health care about the only way he gets it is to NOT PAY FOR IT until his pay check gets garnished the world is full of people just like my brother so they will pretty much be dirt poor forever the fact that i do well was a matter of LUCK OF THE DRAW as much as anything else i was LUCKEY to born fairly SMART and with some natural skills towards the wrench trade sure i have to work my azz off but it i was pretty much born wired correctly to work hard at something that payed well tommays

wildbill59 · Sep 10, 2005

Re: In defence of the poor

An Unnatural Disaster: A Hurricane Exposes the Man-Made Disaster of the Welfare State by Robert Tracinski Sep 02, 2005 It has taken four long days for state and federal officials to figure out how to deal with the disaster in New Orleans. I can't blame them, because it has also taken me four long days to figure out what is going on there. The reason is that the events there make no sense if you think that we are confronting a natural disaster. If this is just a natural disaster, the response for public officials is obvious: you bring in food, water, and doctors; you send transportation to evacuate refugees to temporary shelters; you send engineers to stop the flooding and rebuild the city's infrastructure. For journalists, natural disasters also have a familiar pattern: the heroism of ordinary people pulling together to survive; the hard work and dedication of doctors, nurses, and rescue workers; the steps being taken to clean up and rebuild. Public officials did not expect that the first thing they would have to do is to send thousands of armed troops in armored vehicle, as if they are suppressing an enemy insurgency. And journalists--myself included--did not expect that the story would not be about rain, wind, and flooding, but about rape, murder, and looting. But this is not a natural disaster. It is a man-made disaster. The man-made disaster is not an inadequate or incompetent response by federal relief agencies, and it was not directly caused by Hurricane Katrina. This is where just about every newspaper and television channel has gotten the story wrong. The man-made disaster we are now witnessing in New Orleans did not happen over the past four days. It happened over the past four decades. Hurricane Katrina merely exposed it to public view. The man-made disaster is the welfare state. For the past few days, I have found the news from New Orleans to be confusing. People were not behaving as you would expect them to behave in an emergency--indeed, they were not behaving as they have behaved in other emergencies. That is what has shocked so many people: they have been saying that this is not what we expect from America. In fact, it is not even what we expect from a Third World country. When confronted with a disaster, people usually rise to the occasion. They work together to rescue people in danger, and they spontaneously organize to keep order and solve problems. This is especially true in America. We are an enterprising people, used to relying on our own initiative rather than waiting around for the government to take care of us. I have seen this a hundred times, in small examples (a small town whose main traffic light had gone out, causing ordinary citizens to get out of their cars and serve as impromptu traffic cops, directing cars through the intersection) and large ones (the spontaneous response of New Yorkers to 9/11). So what explains the chaos in New Orleans? To give you an idea of the magnitude of what is going on, here is a description from a Washington Times story: "Storm victims are raped and beaten; fights erupt with flying fists, knives and guns; fires are breaking out; corpses litter the streets; and police and rescue helicopters are repeatedly fired on. "The plea from Mayor C. Ray Nagin came even as National Guardsmen poured in to restore order and stop the looting, carjackings and gunfire.... "Last night, Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco said 300 Iraq-hardened Arkansas National Guard members were inside New Orleans with shoot-to-kill orders. " 'These troops are...under my orders to restore order in the streets,' she said. 'They have M-16s, and they are locked and loaded. These troops know how to shoot and kill and they are more than willing to do so if necessary and I expect they will.' " The reference to Iraq is eerie. The photo that accompanies this article shows National Guard troops, with rifles and armored vests, riding on an armored vehicle through trash-strewn streets lined by a rabble of squalid, listless people, one of whom appears to be yelling at them. It looks exactly like a scene from Sadr City in Baghdad. What explains bands of thugs using a natural disaster as an excuse for an orgy of looting, armed robbery, and rape? What causes unruly mobs to storm the very buses that have arrived to evacuate them, causing the drivers to drive away, frightened for their lives? What causes people to attack the doctors trying to treat patients at the Super Dome? Why are people responding to natural destruction by causing further destruction? Why are they attacking the people who are trying to help them? Sherri figured it out first, and she figured it out on a sense-of-life level. While watching the coverage last night on Fox News Channel, she told me that she was getting a familiar feeling. She studied architecture at the Illinois Institute of Chicago, which is located in the South Side of Chicago just blocks away from the Robert Taylor Homes, one of the largest high-rise public housing projects in America. "The projects," as they were known, were infamous for uncontrollable crime and irremediable squalor. (They have since, mercifully, been demolished.) What Sherri was getting from last night's television coverage was a whiff of the sense of life of "the projects." Then the "crawl"--the informational phrases flashed at the bottom of the screen on most news channels--gave some vital statistics to confirm this sense: 75% of the residents of New Orleans had already evacuated before the hurricane, and of the 300,000 or so who remained, a large number were from the city's public housing projects. Jack Wakeland then gave me an additional, crucial fact: early reports from CNN and Fox indicated that the city had no plan for evacuating all of the prisoners in the city's jails--so they just let many of them loose. There is no doubt a significant overlap between these two populations--that is, a large number of people in the jails used to live in the housing projects, and vice versa. There were many decent, innocent people trapped in New Orleans when the deluge hit--but they were trapped alongside large numbers of people from two groups: criminals--and wards of the welfare state, people selected, over decades, for their lack of initiative and self-induced helplessness. The welfare wards were a mass of sheep--on whom the incompetent administration of New Orleans unleashed a pack of wolves. All of this is related, incidentally, to the apparent incompetence of the city government, which failed to plan for a total evacuation of the city, despite the knowledge that this might be necessary. But in a city corrupted by the welfare state, the job of city officials is to ensure the flow of handouts to welfare recipients and patronage to political supporters--not to ensure a lawful, orderly evacuation in case of emergency. No one has really reported this story, as far as I can tell. In fact, some are already actively distorting it, blaming President Bush, for example, for failing to personally ensure that the Mayor of New Orleans had drafted an adequate evacuation plan. The worst example is an execrable piece from the Toronto Globe and Mail, by a supercilious Canadian who blames the chaos on American "individualism." But the truth is precisely the opposite: the chaos was caused by a system that was the exact opposite of individualism. What Hurricane Katrina exposed was the psychological consequences of the welfare state. What we consider "normal" behavior in an emergency is behavior that is normal for people who have values and take the responsibility to pursue and protect them. People with values respond to a disaster by fighting against it and doing whatever it takes to overcome the difficulties they face. They don't sit around and complain that the government hasn't taken care of them. They don't use the chaos of a disaster as an opportunity to prey on their fellow men. But what about criminals and welfare parasites? Do they worry about saving their houses and property? They don't, because they don't own anything. Do they worry about what is going to happen to their businesses or how they are going to make a living? They never worried about those things before. Do they worry about crime and looting? But living off of stolen wealth is a way of life for them. The welfare state--and the brutish, uncivilized mentality it sustains and encourages--is the man-made disaster that explains the moral ugliness that has swamped New Orleans. And that is the story that no one is reporting. Source: TIA Daily -- September 2, 2005

BrettNC · Sep 10, 2005

Re: In defence of the poor

Tommays, I really respect your post and you make a valid point. That is the exact purpose of government and the welfare state. It is to help those who are not capable of helping themselves. Those who are so incapable it is impossible to help themselves. What I am trying to say is it was originally crafted to help someone like your brother. Two problems have developed in the system: 1: Those who have power and make decisions within the system have no incentive to see it get smaller in size, other than moral obligation. But few of the people in the system have that quality. If there were only a few that took advantage of the system, then the power that those who control the welfare state would be greatly reduced. 2: As a result, those who honestly need the help are not given all of the help that could be given because the system is so bogged down. These flaws are why I argue so aggressively about this subject. A lot of people are threatened when someone talks about teaching the road to success to those who are capable of making their own decisions and helping themselves. The welfare state is not what I am against. I'm against the way it is handled.

rodbolt · Sep 10, 2005

Re: In defence of the poor

tommays I have a nephew born with a chromasone disorder, they told my sis he would not survive. he is almost 10 now. cant speak much but he can walk and just this year he is about potty trained. I have a cousin that is good as gold and honest as the day is long yet dumber than a brick. we try to take care of him. he does not drink nor do drugs but people try to take advantage of him. its absolutly amazing how the local"church" folk try to jack him up. they constantly try to get him to take side jobs for nothing. I forgot to mention that he is an incredible carpenter/cabinet maker. he cant read but he can see the drawing and somehow is good with a tape measure.

BrettNC · Sep 10, 2005

Re: In defence of the poor

I hear you rodbolt. It is these people the system should target. It is these people we should strive to help.

tommays · Sep 10, 2005

Re: In defence of the poor

it is amazing how people will take advantage of slow people i see it happen to my brother a LOT up here me have a place called MARYHAVEN CENTER OF HOPE its a huge sheltered work shop for all types of disabled people they do all manner of USEFULL work from widget assembly to records microfilming at what ever pace they can handle it gives there life REAL meaning and protects them from advantage takers tommays

DJ · Sep 10, 2005

Re: In defence of the poor

There is a BIG difference between "not capable" and WON'T.

Kiwi Phil · Sep 11, 2005

Re: In defence of the poor

Thanks for raising this topic Tink. I have given it a lot of thought all day and agree with you. As for our Aborigines - I wish we could come up with a solution to raise them from 5th world status and conditions. It has bothered me since late 80's. I doubt our American friends can ever imagine the situation they are in. What has concerned me for some years is the result of 'economic rationalisation' where workers at the bottom of the heap, who probably were never very productive, were made redundant, and stood nil chance of being re-employed. I reckon we now have a 3rd generation of unemployed in the same family. If there were menial labouring jobs, these people would fill them, and they and society would probably be much better for it. Cheers Phillip

Tinkrrr · Sep 12, 2005

Re: In defence of the poor

Originally posted by Kiwi Phil: As for our Aborigines - I wish we could come up with a solution to raise them from 5th world status and conditions. It has bothered me since late 80's. I doubt our American friends can ever imagine the situation they are in.

Mate, don't we all wish we could sort it out For those outside Australia, there is nothing to compare with it in the developed world. You have no idea of the gulf between even the poorest of our whites and the poorest of our Aborigines. BIG CHUNK MISSING: I just wasted a heap of screens typing one of my lengthy essays on this topic (touch typing is a curse) but deleted it because I couldn't begin to do it justice and give people outside Australia a fair picture of the difficult and complex issues facing the many different types of life and experience of traditional, rural and urban Aborigines and the attempts and failures of white society and government to solve them, usually without much consultation with the people whose problems they were going to solve. Talk about the harm done with the best of intentions by well-meaning people.

What has concerned me for some years is the result of 'economic rationalisation' where workers at the bottom of the heap, who probably were never very productive, were made redundant, and stood nil chance of being re-employed. I reckon we now have a 3rd generation of unemployed in the same family. If there were menial labouring jobs, these people would fill them, and they and society would probably be much better for it. Cheers Phillip

Interesting that you should raise this because I was thinking about starting a thread on it, in response to some of the harsh comments on the poor in other threads. In 1970 I had reached the dizzying heights of registry manager in a Commonwealth department. I had a couple of barely employable staff. One had mild to moderate disabilities, both intellectual and physical. The other didn't have any obvious disabilities. She was by general standards just plain stupid, essentially because her background encouraged her to have contempt for education and intellectual development of any kind. She was a credit to her proudly ignorant parents. The disabled bloke was about 75% efficient. The stupid sheila was about 50% efficient. Neither of them would have got the same job any time in the last 15 to maybe 20 years, since Nike etc advertisements and the nasty opinions behind them extolled contempt for anyone who doesn't come first and thought it was noble to sh!t on everyone less able or fortunate than themselves. Although 30 or so years ago the public service had lots of people like these two, their equivalents nowadays are permanent welfare cases who are convenient and defenceless punching bags for conservative politicians and smug up-themselves corporate crooks who demand that these poor ba$tards have to go out and get jobs that aren't there that they can't perform because they don't meet the first selection criteria which requires VCE (12 year high school) completion to be mail couriers in a moderate size building which even the dumb sheila could have found her way around without any trouble. So instead of having people of modest ability deriving self-worth and being productive for the money they receive from the taxpayers who funded the public services, now we have them sitting at home being told by smug and superior arseholes that they are worthless burdens on society because they rely on taxpayers to support their unproductive lives. They're also breeding the next generation of welfare dependent people, where under the old system there was a greater chance that their children would see by example that the way to eat is to work instead of expecting a cheque every fortnight for doing sweet FA. Like you said, because it's worth repeating for all the dunderheads in government and commerce who think a dog eat dog world is desirable:

What has concerned me for some years is the result of 'economic rationalisation' where workers at the bottom of the heap, who probably were never very productive, were made redundant, and stood nil chance of being re-employed. I reckon we now have a 3rd generation of unemployed in the same family. If there were menial labouring jobs, these people would fill them, and they and society would probably be much better for it.

kenimpzoom · Sep 12, 2005

Re: In defence of the poor

We can eliminate poverty here in the USA if people would do all three things. 1. Graduate from high school 2. No children until they are married 3. No Marriage until they are 21 The main problem is that how do you get good kids who will follow these three things if the parents are loosers themselves. There are only three solutions: 1)Mandatory sterilization 2)Removal of children from the looser parents 3)No more free ride. You dont work, you die (as in any 3rd world country) I prefer #3 how bout yall? Ken

In defence of the poor

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