I'm an engineer and I still have to shake my head at some designs.

[foodfisher]

Re: I'm an engineer and I still have to shake my head at some designs.

Had a boating engineer tell me, "the hole shot is terrible and it takes forever to get off plane."

 

[rbh]

Re: I'm an engineer and I still have to shake my head at some designs.

Engineers figure out ways to get things ticking, mechanics have to keep it ticking.
and recalls are just do to sloppy workmanship.

 

[WIMUSKY]

Re: I'm an engineer and I still have to shake my head at some designs.

Bubba, what model was this? With my Dad gone now my stepmom is mowing with a newer jd. I just did the oil change and tuneup the other day. Speaking of witch how do ya like where the oil drain is?

Sounds like it's designed as well as a Cub Cadet...... I shake my head everytime I change the oil.....

 

[levittownnick]

Re: I'm an engineer and I still have to shake my head at some designs.

Many engineering decisions are based on the following 3 criteria that are quoted.

1. Price.
2. Delivery timing.
3. Quality of product.

You will generally get 2 of the above 3 criteria met and the other one sadly lacking.

I'm an engineer so I am not knocking all engineers, but some, they should be taken out and horse whipped!


Got the John Deere garden tractor out today, did the tune up and oil change thing, sharpened blades, greased everything etc and set out to mow the lawn. About 10 minutes into it and I can smell raw gas, LOTS of it! Stopped, took it up to work on it and started pulling covers off and then fire it up to see what I can see.

Spotted it instantly, the fuel pump has a ruptured diaphram and fuel is spraying out a weep hole with every cycle of the fuel pump, DIRECTLY on to the HOT muffler! I am amazed the entire thing didn't go up in flames and roast my old behind in the process. (I'm not talking about a drip, a full stream under pressure.)

It's hard to imagine it but somewhere a John Deere enginer looked at the set up and gave it the go ahead. 20 cents of rubber hose would route the flow safely away in a failure like this but I suppose that would have shaved a fraction off the profit margin. Sigh...

Most engineering decisions are based on the following 3 criteria that are quoted.
1) Price
2) Price
3) Profit

The approval is where the buck should stop. So the approval was supervised by a financial expert.

 

[JimS123]

Re: I'm an engineer and I still have to shake my head at some designs.

Often the problem isn't the fact that the Engineer doesn't have any practical experience, its that too many cooks spoil the broth. That JD tractor probably was designed by several Engineers. Then some bean counter put it all together. If the thing were designed by a team in the first place, all working together at the same time, its likely it would have come out better.

I'm an Enginner as well - 41 years on the job. I don't do consumer products - the "users" are the factory workers that run the plant after I leave. We take a diffeent approach. I design things on a computer, supervise building it, then start it up, finally training the users. We involve the hourly workers, supervisors, maintenance mechanics all through the process. I can't leave until everybody is satisfied.

When I DID do consumer goods, we had focus groups of real live Customers and got their input during the design phase. Obviously, that's kinda expensive and that's why it isnt often done these days. Besides, most American Consumers don't speak Chinese, so communicating with the Engineers is near impossible.

BTW, there are only 2 manufacturers of lawn mowers and lawn tractors now. JD is one. The other is MTD, who private labels Toro, Cub Cadet, etc, etc. If it isnt a JD, its all the same.

 

[aspeck]

Re: I'm an engineer and I still have to shake my head at some designs.

Sounds like it's designed as well as a Cub Cadet...... I shake my head everytime I change the oil.....

Yep, there is NO WAY to change the oil without getting oil all over the frame ... just can't be done. But I gotta do mine this week!

 

[bruceb58]

Re: I'm an engineer and I still have to shake my head at some designs.

As a design engineer myself, but in the electronics field, price and profit are important but performance is a huge criteria. Our product has a higher price tag than our main competitor but we have a larger market share because of our performance difference.

If any of you work for a company where the price is the only criteria, start looking for another job because your company isn't going to be in business for very long.

Regarding the engineer designing the fuel pump adjacent to an exhaust manifold, since you don't know all the engineering tradeoffs that required it to go there, kinda hard to arm chair quarterback and say it was from a poor engineering decision, a cost only issue or laziness.

 

[WIMUSKY]

Re: I'm an engineer and I still have to shake my head at some designs.

Yep, there is NO WAY to change the oil without getting oil all over the frame ... just can't be done. But I gotta do mine this week!

Frustrating, isn't it! Did mine already. Wont need to do it again until the 4th of July.......

 

[kenmyfam]

Re: I'm an engineer and I still have to shake my head at some designs.

Most engineering decisions are based on the following 3 criteria that are quoted.
1) Price
2) Price
3) Profit
.

Have to disagree and stick with my original post of Quality, Price and Delivery. And with the choose any 2 of the 3 items.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: I'm an engineer and I still have to shake my head at some designs.

Have to disagree and stick with my original post of Quality, Price and Delivery. And with the choose any 2 of the 3 items.

^^^^+1 I totally agree with ken

 

[Scott Danforth]

Re: I'm an engineer and I still have to shake my head at some designs.

Have to disagree and stick with my original post of Quality, Price and Delivery. And with the choose any 2 of the 3 items.

Price, Performance, Delivery are the 3 governing factors of every transaction and decision in the world. its a fundamental law like gravity, and newtons first law. customer gets 2/3, seller keeps 1/3. I have a decision spinner I made as a joke 20 years ago. has two windows. you highlight the 2/3, and a smaller window shows the other 1/3. yet to find anywhere where the 2/3 - 1/3 law does not apply.

a good example is food at mcdonalds. you want it cheep, you want it fast, however it isnt any good (mcdonalds keeps the performance). if you want it fast and good, it wont be cheep.

 

[minuteman62-64]

Re: I'm an engineer and I still have to shake my head at some designs.

I'm also an engineer (the pipe, concrete, steel beam etc. type) and have been on both sides of this issue. One of my first summer jobs working for a small contractor I was asked to design drainage around a tennis court that we were constructing. Using all of my engineering skills (at least those acquired through my Junior year) I designed a fantastic drainage system that would have taken care of a 1000 year storm. The boss took a look at it, smiled, and pointed out that we'd be moving about 10 cubic yards of dirt and end up with a channel about 10 feet wide and 6 feet deep at the terminus. Then he said ".... lets do it this way .... ."

Good lesson, that I've tried to use ever since. Now, when I design/build something (for myself, since I'm now retired) I think about practicality, amount of materials and, in particular, that someone (probably me) is going to have to either service or dis-assemble this thing sometime down the road.

If you change the oil in your car/truck or do any other service (change plugs?) you'll notice that the designers likely never had to do any of that kind of work.

 

[Scott Danforth]

Re: I'm an engineer and I still have to shake my head at some designs.

If you change the oil in your car/truck or do any other service (change plugs?) you'll notice that the designers likely never had to do any of that kind of work.

Not to defend the auto industry, however the power train engineers (the ones that design the box you put fuel in and it turns) are not the integration engineers (the ones that take the small boxes and wrap it into a bit pretty box with opening doors). in many cases, they are not in the same facility, and in many cases, not even in the same country. they get a "representative" model of the driveline which is a space claim model at best with only the mounting points, and the connection points detailed.

 

[minuteman62-64]

Re: I'm an engineer and I still have to shake my head at some designs.

Not to defend the auto industry, however the power train engineers (the ones that design the box you put fuel in and it turns) are not the integration engineers (the ones that take the small boxes and wrap it into a bit pretty box with opening doors). in many cases, they are not in the same facility, and in many cases, not even in the same country. they get a "representative" model of the driveline which is a space claim model at best with only the mounting points, and the connection points detailed.

I did not know that. Now I understand why I get wrist burns and oil running down to my arm pit every time I do an oil change

Taking from the content of the thread, maybe the auto company should try having teams of veteran mechanics perform (or attempt to perform) basic service/maintenance steps on their prototypes.

 

[JimS123]

Re: I'm an engineer and I still have to shake my head at some designs.

I did not know that. Now I understand why I get wrist burns and oil running down to my arm pit every time I do an oil change

Taking from the content of the thread, maybe the auto company should try having teams of veteran mechanics perform (or attempt to perform) basic service/maintenance steps on their prototypes.

Autos are a breed all of their own. I can remember my Dad cursing because he was having trouble putting on a new exhaust system for the first time. Seems that the drivetrain was installed before the body was placed and all of the brackets were covered by sheet metal with the bolt heads facing up. Torching them off wasn't as easy as it sounds because the chassis was in the way as well.

Now, that was a 1939 model by the way. So that shows you things never change. It also says that mufflers lasted longer back then because the first replacement was in the 1950's.

Today, size and weight take precendence over servicability. If the engine compartment were designed for utility the car would be too big and have too much wind resistance. The second part of the equation is that they want to discourage the home craftsman because service is where they make the big bucks.

 

[kenmyfam]

Re: I'm an engineer and I still have to shake my head at some designs.

True enough but there is a mandated fourth and that is safety. Spraying gasoline on a hot exhaust is a major fubar in even anyone's eyes, caveman to PHD.

Agree however meeting all required local and National legal and safety requirements is meant to be quoted into the original 3 criteria stated. Due to differing minimum requirements in different places.
Your issue should be screaming for a free recall at the very least.

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: I'm an engineer and I still have to shake my head at some designs.

So this is a major event....it's all over the internet...yadda...yadda....yadda??

Well, this was on the internet....right here in fact...

There have been several hundred cases of fires caused by a plastic cooling fan falling apart and engines overheating and setting fires to the garden tractor but the company did nothing until forced to recall the tractors.

That is just irresponsible...and inaccurate. Where did those numbers come from? Several hundred? That implies at least 300....probably fewer than 500.
According to the release by CPSC, this was a voluntary recall, and according to the recall notice there have been a total of 83 instances of any damage and/or fire. That is 83 units out of 36 thousand....still too many, but less than 1/3 of 1%.
Let's be generous and say that 1/2 of the overheats caused a fire (it's probably closer to 1 in 10)....that would be ~ 41fires. Again, still too many, but apparently it was necessary for the OP to multiply by a factor of ten...for effect.


Anyone surprised at this?: http://thomasjhenrylaw.com/blawg/john-deere-lawn-tractor-recall-fire-hazard/

Guess it's easier to chase a recall notice than an ambulance....

Out of curiosity I took a minute and checked the records at the CPSC.... http://www.saferproducts.gov/Search/Result.aspx?cid=3484&dm=0&pcid=98&q=john+deere&srt=0 you guys south of the border spend a lot of money on those watchdogs and from a distance at least, and in the context of a large bureaucracy, they do appear to do a credible job....at least with the information they receive.

Their complaints records are on-line and viewable....AND sortable. If you filter for John Deere/ lawn Tractor/ past 12 months...guess 1) how many complaints are on file....and 2) guess how many relate to fuel pumps?
For those keeping score at home the answer are respectively SIX and ZERO!!!
And of those six tractor reports, ZERO were of the specific problem that led to the recall!!

There is absolutely nothing posted yet in 2012....so since Bubba surely takes this seriously enough to have reported it, there must be a bit of a lag in getting these on the site.

Bottom line is that if there are ZERO complaints about this, I think I know why there is no recall....and it is not getting much attention.

And while we have no way of knowing how many reports John Deere has gotten on this directly, it may well be that most of the consumers who have had any problem with this issue have chosen to spend all their time ranting in internet forums rather than reporting it where it might do some good. :facepalm:

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: I'm an engineer and I still have to shake my head at some designs.

Your issue should be screaming for a free recall at the very least.

^^^^ + 177 !!!!

 

[j_martin]

Re: I'm an engineer and I still have to shake my head at some designs.

I own one of those water cooled cows too. It's found several ways to spray gas on the muffler for me. I no longer park it inside.

An old time mechanic, wrestling with one of those undoable repairs told me, "You have to feel sorry for those Detroit engineers. They're going to spend eternity in Hell trying to reach some adjustment that can't be reached."

 

[25thmustang]

Re: I'm an engineer and I still have to shake my head at some designs.

I'm a young engineer and only had very limited field experience when I was much younger, probably too young to gather and store all that information.

The older, laborer types, do not like to listen to me when I have anything to say... afterall, I know nothing and am just some college educated nerd, who sits at a computer and has never done anything physical at all.