@@#ignds'IN PAYPAL... Grrrr

[JustJason]

I've bought and sold on ebay for a few years now and never had a problem. My last transaction was a tanaka outboard I sold just last week, and the transaction was fine through paypal with expected fees. I've never had a problem until now.
I just sold a high end ski jacket. The buyer put his funds in paypal to pay me in a very timely manner. I get an email from paypal saying the buyer has paid, but there is a 21 day "hold" on releasing the payment to me.

WTF is that all about???????

I called paypal and they said ebay put the hold on the transaction. I got ahold of ebay and they said they never put holds on anything unless there is a dispute/fraud etc. And that my hold is from paypal.

Called paypal back.
This time Paypal tells me to go ahead and ship the item, and upload a ups tracking number to them. 3 days after the package has arrived they will release the payment to me.
Or, wait the 21 days then ship it.
Or, get the buyer to leave me positive feedback on the transaction, call paypal back and then they will release the funds.

So I ask them, What happens if I ship it tommorow and Paypal goes out of business on thursday. I'm out my jacket and the money. They said that "this would never happen". I asked them if they ever heard of lehman brothers, and they said no.
I ask them, what happenes if ups, or usps somehow "looses" my shipment, or if they dropship and the buyers turns out to be a little shady and claims he never recieves the shipment. What happens then?
They said if I don't like it, i can refund back the buyer his money.... Yes, that is the answer I got. Oh and i'm still on the hook for the Ebay fees because paypal will not refund ebay fees. I was so mad that I was ready to rip the persons head off through the phone. I gave the person on the phone a giant F. And told them to close my F"in account, and do whatever they want with the money in there.
They told me I had to refund the money myself and file a "close account" application through the website.

 

[boat1010]

Re: @@#ignds'IN PAYPAL... Grrrr

What a wonderful world we live in.......

 

[JB]

Re: @@#ignds'IN PAYPAL... Grrrr

Cancel the deal and tell PayPal to credit it back to the "buyer". Something stinks about the buyer . . .something PayPal cannot legally reveal to you, so they lie. S.O.P.

Start over.

 

[lowkee]

Re: @@#ignds'IN PAYPAL... Grrrr

When it comes to PayPal you must always assume your money may vanish overnight. PayPal has fought becoming a bank since the beginning because if they did, they would be regulated. As it stands, they can wipe your account, hold your funds for 6 months (with no interest, of course) for no reason at all. I had an account closed for no more reason than someone complained. Thousands of dollars were placed on hold and I could no longer use the account, literally hundreds of subscriptions (I sold web site subscriptions) were effectively canceled, and I had to barrage them with phones calls until they released the funds I needed to pay my business costs. I ended up having to open a new account and never used them again for anything beyond a few bucks here and there. Also, PayPal has no option to remove your financial data from their servers. So, if your CC or bank account funds your PayPal account, your info is available to them forever. Oh, and did I mention how easy it is to illegally buy account details in India?

So.. (In an indian accent) "Thank you, come again"

 

[JustJason]

Re: @@#ignds'IN PAYPAL... Grrrr

Cancel the deal and tell PayPal to credit it back to the "buyer". Something stinks about the buyer . .

I hear ya. But paypal says the money is in my account. But on hold for 21 days so I don't understand it.

 

[dr_bowtie]

Re: @@#ignds'IN PAYPAL... Grrrr

Ebay changed it EULA rules earlier this year...

If you have under 100 feedback you are susceptible to this rule or if the sell amount is over 100.00 and they also do this on Random transactions...

You are correct to the fact you either MUST ship first and once the buyer receives the item it will clear or the buyer leaves Positive feedback ahead of time...which I would NEVER do until I received the product to check to make sure it is indeed what i payed for...

the rulling stinks but they think it will help protect buyers from getting scammed but it does NOTHING to protect sellers...
I went thru this on my last sale...

I was contacted that the buyer made payment and that it was on hold..my Policy is I dont ship until the money is available...I consider it available when I have access to it...Ebay considers it available when it is in your paypal account even though it is on hold..

I contacted the buyer to let him know I would ship once the money was available and then I would ship...the buyer wanted prompt shipment...I wanted prompt payment...he filed a dispute and it propmted me to do just as you have done...I didnt like the idea of shipping before the money cleared but when I buy something as soon as I hit the PAID button I want my product on its way...not waiting until it clears on your end...

this is how to protect yourself....

Ship with DELIVERY CONFIRMATION and SIGNATURE DELIVERY...

Make sure the BUYER is the ONLY ONE who can sign for the product...

this does 2 things...you get a confirmation tag that the Buyer accepted the product so they cannot say they didnt receive it...it also protects you from shipper losing it...or it mysteriously disappearing...shipper have to handle it better because they know if it has Signature request tied to it and the buyer hasnt signed it means someone that works for them stole it or they lost it...either way they MUST pay you for it...!!! either way it's covered

 

[TilliamWe]

Re: @@#ignds'IN PAYPAL... Grrrr

Yep, just another way that EBay and Paypal protect the frauds, but leave the honest people out in the wind. They also don't back the sellers, they back the buyers. Well, considering they started the business as a way for sellers to sell stuff, they definately seem to have forgotten their core business.
Good luck, Jason.

 

[thedukeryan]

Re: @@#ignds'IN PAYPAL... Grrrr

I had two accounts and about $10k locked up due to selling items against their policies. So I knew that PayPal was anti gun but didnt have a clue that it was to the point that they would lock my account for selling slings, scopes, bipods and other completely harmless accessories. I called and B*%@$ed at them explaining that the only things that I had sold where minor accessories. They said that although the accessories are not illegal to own, ship etc they are designed to be used on items that are against their policies. Told me that they where locking the funds for 6 months due to the fact that their goal was to keep the money out of the wrong hands. Long story short I was able to get the money out but it was not easy. You should be able to get your payment cleared pretty quickly once you ship it but if anyone has a large amount of cash locked up in a held account and needs it out let me know. I have some advice on getting it released.

 

[dr_bowtie]

Re: @@#ignds'IN PAYPAL... Grrrr

I had two accounts and about $10k locked up due to selling items against their policies. So I knew that PayPal was anti gun but didnt have a clue that it was to the point that they would lock my account for selling slings, scopes, bipods and other completely harmless accessories. I called and B*%@$ed at them explaining that the only things that I had sold where minor accessories. They said that although the accessories are not illegal to own, ship etc they are designed to be used on items that are against their policies. Told me that they where locking the funds for 6 months due to the fact that their goal was to keep the money out of the wrong hands. Long story short I was able to get the money out but it was not easy. You should be able to get your payment cleared pretty quickly once you ship it but if anyone has a large amount of cash locked up in a held account and needs it out let me know. I have some advice on getting it released.

in this case I would have sued PayPal in a class action lawsuit...they cannot control who gets the money and who doesnt...they are ONLY a means of money transfer service...they cannot control whos hands the money should be in for simple buying and selling...that is control fraud plain and simple...

 

[JustJason]

Re: @@#ignds'IN PAYPAL... Grrrr

Good to know Dr Bowtie, thanks for the info.
As for shipping the item before the money hits my actual bank account, Well that just isn't going to happen, not in a million years. If I order parts from a vendor I have a revolving line of credit with, and I haven't made a payment in a while, no parts will get shipped to me, it doesn't matter what I owe.

I got the buyers phone number and left him a message, I'll let you all know how it works out once I hear back from him.

I don't like this new EULA. Basically I am becoming a line of credit 1 item at a time to somebody out there on ebay, and Paypal is acting like my FDIC.

 

[ne7800]

Re: @@#ignds'IN PAYPAL... Grrrr

Ship with DELIVERY CONFIRMATION and SIGNATURE DELIVERY...

This is not needed if you ship with Signature Confirmation, you do not need Delivery Confirmation aswell

 

[dr_bowtie]

Re: @@#ignds'IN PAYPAL... Grrrr

maybe not but this covers your butt both ways and it doesnt cost anything really...and I would rather pay the whole 1.00 to prove it gets where it is supposed to without question...

there is a rampant amount of theft going on in the shipping business and I dont need to worry about that as well as buyers saying they havent gotten their product...using both of these methods you prove if they have or not and if they didnt the shipper cannot weasel out of it with a "canned" excuse...

I dont ship anything until the money shows and I dont like to do it until it is cleared...my company policy is just that... and this new EULA is mostly why I quit selling on EBAY....I have a 100% positive feedback but only so long before it gets tarnished from a scam buyer...so I opted to quit and sell locally...

 

[Beeched]

Re: @@#ignds'IN PAYPAL... Grrrr

The vast majority of sales on Ebay are transacted by good and honest people. Granted there are some out there that are frauds. Now is this the real reason that they are holding funds? If you stop and look at the situation you will find that the following holds true.

I buy an item and pay with Paypal, the item is $100.00. They put a 21 day hold on the funds to the seller yet my account is charged right away. While that money is in holding pattern they are drawing interest on my money. After 21 days the seller finally gets payment. Paypal just received 1.5% to 3% in free money that they did not have to do anything for. No big deal to the seller or buyer of this item. Now you multiply this by 10 of thousands of transactions and that adds up really quick.

Very high income just for the premise of protecting someone from fraud. IMHO

 

[belairbrian]

Re: @@#ignds'IN PAYPAL... Grrrr

If you want a signature from the recipient go with UPS not USPS. Twice I've paid for signatures only to get the green card back with no signature. Asked the post office about it. The post office told me they would still deliver if the person would not sign. Also they wont give you the fee back.

 

[ne7800]

Re: @@#ignds'IN PAYPAL... Grrrr

If you want a signature from the recipient go with UPS not USPS. Twice I've paid for signatures only to get the green card back with no signature. Asked the post office about it. The post office told me they would still deliver if the person would not sign. Also they wont give you the fee back.

I work for the Post Office and if a person refuses to sign the policy is we DO NOT deliver

 

[BoatBuoy]

Re: @@#ignds'IN PAYPAL... Grrrr

eBay/PayPal needs a peer competitor REAL bad and why one hasn't emerged is astonishing.

 

[JustJason]

Re: @@#ignds'IN PAYPAL... Grrrr

Small update, he wrote me

Jason, you must ship the jacket now
> to meet your seller's oligation. I cannot give a positive
> feedback because you may decide not to ship and I cannot get
> my money back.


This is what he got back....

Illian,
Actually I am not obligated to ship it now. If you read the original auction it specifically says under the "shipping and payments" tab what my shipping obligations are. I just cut and pasted this from the auction but please check it if you want to for yourself.

Shipping and handling
Item location: Dunstable, Massachusetts, United States
Shipping to: United States
Change country:Show all availableUnited States ZIP Code:

Shipping and handling To Service Estimated delivery*
US $15.00 United States UPS Ground 4-9 business days
after seller receives cleared payment

*The estimated delivery time is based on the seller's handling time, the shipping service selected, and when the seller receives cleared payment. Sellers are not responsible for shipping service transit times. Transit times may vary, particularly during peak periods.
Domestic handling time
Will usually ship within 3 business days of receiving cleared payment.

It specifically states when I will ship after I have a Cleared payment. Right now I have a Held payment. By definition a Cleared payment is anything I could go to the bank for now and demand US LEGAL TENDER. With a Hold, I cannot legally demand anything.

Listen, Understandably your concerned that I will not ship the jacket. But you also have to understand that I am concerned I will not get paid for the item. I know I don't have much of a history with Ebay but if you look through you will see all of my reviews are positive. I just sold an outboard engine last week and I had the buyer come to my house to pick it up. After the deal was done, and after his payment cleared through paypal, I invited him over, demo'd the engine, and made sure he was happy. And you can see by his comments to me that he was.

Paypal won't do anything for me over the phone, I spent over an hour trying already. However as the buyer I guess you can try giving paypal a call and expedite things for you. Or you can wait the 21 days, or as paypal told me, leaving positive feedback will automatically release the hold. Once the hold is released and the payment as cleared my account. I will happily promptly ship it to you in the quickest manner that the $15.00 shipping charge allows me to do so.

Just let me know what you would like to do. If you feel the need to cancel the transaction you have to do so on your end in order for me to forgo the "final sale fees" that are incurred to me on this item through Ebay.
Best,
Jason
Any Q's please give me a call at XXXXXXXXXX

Be interesting to see what he want to do with this.

 

[lowkee]

Re: @@#ignds'IN PAYPAL... Grrrr

That's too bad. It seems to be a lose-lose on both ends. If he wants it now, he has to forfeit his feedback ability, instead being forced to leave positive feedback no matter what, or else sit on his rump for 21+ days waiting. I fail to see who this protects. I'm inclined to agree with the 'make money off the float' theory above.

 

[JustJason]

Re: @@#ignds'IN PAYPAL... Grrrr

Whats really to bad is this guy is actually getting himself a great deal. Although it is a used jacket, I wore it maybe 10 times at most last year, and could easilly be passed for new if I still had the tags for it. In a nutshell its an $800 coat that can not be bought by the public. Spyder makes 2 product lines, the stuff you buy in the ski shops, and the progear line that individuals cannot buy. They are made by the manufactor for snow sports professionals, mountain workers, olympic ski teams etc... Basically anybody thats expected to be in sub zero temps for 8+ hours a day. Its the warmest coat i've ever had. He got it for 150 plus 15 bucks to ship the thing.



This next part is a solicitation... So PM me if interested. But I may be able to get some Spyder tarantula insulated ski pants if anyone wants some. Retail 185+, I can get any iboats member with at least 1000 posts (gotta make sure your trusted!!) a set for 75 bucks plus a few bucks for shipping. These would be brand new with tags in spyder plastic wrap. Not to many sizes available, mostely smalls, a few mediums, and some XXL's. Limited quanity available. Please PM me and don't post about it in the forums. I would need a promise of yes, and tell me your size (size chart available on spyders website) And I will have them next week.


And oh yeah... Dec 5th I get an 8 hour ski clinic to ski with Joe Cartier, former olympic coach and one of Bode Millers old coaches. Bode Miller himself, Tommy Moe, Glen Plake (don't have a clue as to how they got him on board, but i've met him and his wife before and they are cool folks) Pam Fletcher, Picabo Street, They are all confirmed... And possibly Alberto Tomba as well as some of new englands best of past and present. I was 1 of 50 selected for this... And best of all..... not only is everything free.... I'm getting paid to do it Beers and burgers included... I can't wait.

 

[Les Robb]

Re: @@#ignds'IN PAYPAL... Grrrr

From the buyer side I like the speed of pay pal. Most of my payments (If I'm awake) are made within 5 minutes of successful bidding and never more than 12 hours. On the average I have my package withing a week max.

Maybe if I made my living selling on e-bay it would be a different thing. But for one I don't like the hassle of money orders etc.

Just my 2 bits