I have reached middle age, and want to slalom ski again...

[firstx1017]

I am wondering how your body should be when turning. I cross the wakes with my ski flat I notice - not really sure how to get the ski on edge. I am a very visual person so trying to read what I need to do is very hard for me. Can SkiBrain help me out as to how my body position should be and where I should put pressure on my feet when turning to cut thru the wakes? I am heading out this weekend and would like to work on getting the ski on edge while going thru the wakes. Thanks!!!

 

[milehighjc]

Vickki, Check out post 117 in this thread... I found it difficult to get the guts up to cross the wake in that "strong" position, but when I did it, it felt a lot more under control.

 

[firstx1017]

delete

 

[firstx1017]

Vickki, Check out post 117 in this thread... I found it difficult to get the guts up to cross the wake in that "strong" position, but when I did it, it felt a lot more under control.

okay - I'll look for it!

 

[firstx1017]

Yes, I read that post several times trying to visually do what he was saying, but when you turn the ski, do you push down with your front foot, rear foot - what actually are you doing to try to turn the ski towards the wake? I saw several videos about leaning back and keeping your arms down on top of your vest - should you do this or not? Not sure of this "squirting" across the wake?

 

[milehighjc]

Ill let skibrain make his comment - I would sure trust him more than me, but Ill say what I found this weekend...

First off, I think something is wrong with how far back I appear to be on my ski... it stands to reason that the ski should respond much better with more ski in the water. Per my earlier post, I have to figure out what is up with that - short ski,bad technique, too slow... I dont know yet.

My interpretation of what skibrain meant by a "strong" position is having my weight back counterbalancing the pull of the boat with - this results in having a lot of leverage. The harder I lean into it, the faster I go, and the further outside the wake I get. Im not sure how to explain the "squirt" except to say that as soon as you get up on the edge (leaning out), you will not only turn, but accelerate (quickly) because you are having to cover more distance in the same amount of time (instead of just following the boat, you are turning - covering more water than you would if just following the boat). Its a cool feeling - you can FEEL the acceleration (hence... squirt).

Another editorial remark - my technique (even in my younger days) was to turn the ski to the outside, then dig the outside edge in (meaning right edge if on the right side of the boat). I would just have an extended tug of war with the boat, hanging on the outside like that until I got tired or bored, then straighten up, wait for the boat to take up the slack, then turn back towards the wake - usually just "drifting" back towards the wake until I crossed it. The approach would be with the ski flat on the water and not a lot of speed which would result in instability as I crossed the wake, especially if the water was rough at all - then I would lean into it again, and dig the edge in which would shoot me out to the other side. Rinse and repeat until I wore myself out. It was fun, but that technique did not serve me well the few times I tried to ski a course.

Yesterday, I really worked on this... once up, I headed to the outside of the wake, and took a strong position immediately (on the edge, and leaning into it hard. That made me accelerate aggressively to the outside, where I then coasted a little (taking a slightly more upright position), then turned hard back towards the wake, and leaned into it the other way (strong position). I would then accelerate hard to the wake, this time TRYING not to chicken out, straighten up, and slow down (this is a HARD habit for me to break). When I did it, I was pleasantly surprised to find that I felt like I had much better control cutting THROUGH the wake on the edge instead of sliding over it with a flat and unstable ski. I would then stay in that strong position until I was all the way to the other side, then just repeated the process in the other direction.

Its going to take a lot of work... and a lot of practice, but I can see how this should keep me in better control, burn less energy, while actually executing more turns (which is what is fun about a slalom ski) within the same run.

>>>edit just noticed something I find interesting: In post 99, you will see that Im thowing a rooster tail to the inside - while Im doing that "tug of war" thing, leaning hard to the outside. I would hang in that position for a long time. In post 119, the rooster tail is going to the outside, as I turn back towards the wake. In all the pictures from yesterday, there are very few with me throwing a rooster tail to the INSIDE... because I was coasting when I was getting to the apex of the turn...

I dont know if ANY of this makes any sense, but if nothing else, it has been helpful for me to think it through for myself

Jeff

 

[skibrain]

90% of people riding slalom water skis carry too much weight on their back leg. Comments like "my back leg gets so tired" are common. The bindings on a slalom ski are mounted forward more than on a combo ski with rear toe. AND the idea is to ride with feet pretty equally balanced between front and back. Instead of a straight front let and bent rear leg, think of bending your FRONT knee and straightening your REAR leg. Try it on dry land and you'll find that instead of seeing the shin of your front leg, you're front knee will be hiding your front foot. (I'm not recommending your ski looking down at your feet, but you get the idea). You'll also notice the weight shift forward and your hips will push forward as well. That is a better, balanced stance on a ski - whether riding straight, accelerating toward the wake and cutting through the wakes, or turning. etc.

Here is a series of shots I pasted together about 10 yrs ago that might help visualize. Referring to these from the top and moving counter clockwise. Note that on the right side of the wake (skier's right, viewers left) I am on the left edge of my ski. Moving off the second wake in fact, you see the TOP of my ski from the boat. In the last shot, on the other side of the wake in that glide into the turn, I have made the edge change and you can see the TOP of my ski from the boat. No leaning AWAY from the boat out past the second wake. I'm leaning away from the boat when skiing TOWARD the wake. As I think I mentioned before in another post, on the right side of the wake (skier's right) you are on one big arc riding the left edge of your ski, with the end of that arc being the most aggressive acceleration phase. On the skiers left side of the wake, you are on a big arc riding the right edge of your ski.

Now in these pics I am going faster. 34 mph boat speed, with pretty strong angle behind the boat that puts me at about 45 mph going through the wakes. That results in a lot of speed to carry out wide beyond the second wake. At slower boat speed you will be skiing narrower with less speed to carry you out wide.

How do you initiate a turn? let's see, on a bicycle if I want to turn LEFT, I turn the handlebars slightly to the RIGHT which steers the front wheel out from under the bike, destabilizes it and then is followed by a leaning turn to the LEFT with slight handlebar turning now to the left (most people have no idea they do this, but it is fact. It's called countersteer) same on a ski, you cast the ski out to the RIGHT to initiate a LEFT turn. Skier speed, and the radius of the turn dictate the following lean angle. You can't lean over unless you are going really fast and are making a tight turn.

I think that the mid and wide skis don't roll onto edge very easily. They are wider and resist that a bit more. so your results may vary, but I think the idea is that you are going to try doing this same movement, just less aggressively. Don't worry about turning for now. get that stacked, balanced position. keep the ski handle low. turn the ski toward the wake and it will accelerate.

If you don't have your arms straight, hips forward, and handle low, that additional load will make your back really sore.

 

[milehighjc]

In light of those pictures, maybe the attitude of my ski is not that far off. The fourth picture from the left tells the story of crossing the wake on edge!

 

[firstx1017]

Thanks Jeff - I have viewed your video over and over and over and re-read everything and the hubby and I thoroughly discussed it and I get exactly what you are saying now. I think I have it down what I need to do - and I have a sneaky feeling that when I speed up to cross the wake I will chicken out and standup and go over with the board flat. I am not a speed demon that's for sure! But I do know what I should practice on and your explanation above truly helped this visual person. I believe I will be falling a lot but as they say, if you're not falling, you're not learning! I think that one spot of my video at 1:38 I actually did lean into the turn and when I started to speed up it scare me so I pulled back upright. And I understand the strong position and I too would lean hard to get far out to the side of the boat and then turn - and actually do exactly as you described above. I just didn't realize that the strong position I use to get from behind the boat to the far outside of the boat is the same position I should use when crossing the wake. So, than you so much and I can' wait until Saturday to try this!!! Wish me luck! Vicki

 

[firstx1017]

Thanks SkiBrain - that helps also - I know about counter steering from riding motorcycles also. Since I will be on the Big Daddy it may not be that easy, but I want to work on crossing the wakes and then maybe next year work on my turns. May have to see about getting another ski for next year.... Thank you so much!

 

[milehighjc]

Moving off the second wake in fact, you see the TOP of my ski from the boat. In the last shot, on the other side of the wake in that glide into the turn, I have made the edge change and you can see the TOP of my ski from the boat. No leaning AWAY from the boat out past the second wake. I'm leaning away from the boat when skiing TOWARD the wake.

This comment really has my attention. I think I was starting to move towards this yesterday, but Im not home yet.

Its going to take some practice to gain the confidence to cut through the wake as hard and fast as I think is required... I can think it out, but when on the water its a little harder for me to break old habits (even if they are almost 30 years old).

I will say this about this little adventure... At first I thought I might have been a little crazy to take on relearning slalom at 55. I guess I pride myself in being a LITTLE crazy. Now that Im kind of past the deepwater start, and onto technique, this is one of the most fun things I have done in a couple of decades. Its challenging, but rewarding. I have learned that I can do it... and that even when I do fall that I am really not brittle. Sore, yes. Broken, no. When I finish a run, I wind up laying in the water almost motionless waiting for the boat to return - completely spent. And Smiling.

 

[firstx1017]

When I finish a run, I wind up laying in the water almost motionless waiting for the boat to return - completely spent. And Smiling.

I completely agree with this! I have taken up lots of new activities since turning 50 and get a lot of encouragement. Especially snowboarding - those lifties are always telling the hubby and myself how great it is to see us snowboarding at our age, and he's 60! lol

 

[firstx1017]

Jeff - wellI hope your outing was better than mine Saturday. I was really trying to get the ski up on edge in my turns. Obviously, what you think you are doing and what I see in the video are 2 different things. I fell more that day than I ever have trying to get that ski on edge, yet when I look at the video I am still going over the wake with the ski flat. I was soooooo frickin sore all day Sunday that I just scoured you tube videos and read more articles and now I think that another problem I am having is I am going too slow. With the wider ski you can go slower, so I was doing 25 mph. However, it now seems that I need to be going faster - at least 28-30 and then the wakes will be a little smaller. I also found a sale on craigslist Sunday for a Connnelly Mid SX like yours for the hubby and a Connelly LX for women for me. When I compare my ski to the Big Daddy it is a lot shorter so maybe it will be easier for me to turn the ski and maybe get on edge; however, now I worry that it will be harder to get up because it is less surface area to get up on. We only have one more weekend before the lake we go to is closed for the year. So, I think my plan is to see if I can get up on the LX and try just going faster and get used to that and then next summer try cutting across the lake. Then again, I will be another year older - so who knows what I will be able to do! Hope you were able to get up on your HO ski. Here is a video of my attempting turning and failing.... so sad.....
Vicki

 

[milehighjc]

Well, unfortunately, my Saturday outing was nothing. Could not find an observer, so it was just a nice day out with my wife, and our puppy. Beautiful day, just no skiing. :-(

Sorry to hear the report of tourbles, and sore. I tried watching the video, and could only catch the first minute or so thanks to a slow hotel wifi connection. Skibrain would be much better qualified, but Ill offer this... what I could see, you cut reasonably hard back to the wake, and then JUST before you crossed it, it looks like you stand up (flattening your ski). I have the same problem.... its HARD to convince yourself to cross the wake that fast, and not being upright. It seems VERY unnatural to me. However, when I was able to do it, it felt more in control, and more secure. My natural instinct also is to slow down (standing up), and I had to fight that hard.

RE Speed, and the ski... I ski at 30-31, but Im all of 200+ lbs on a 67" combo ski. I never did get up on the Mid SX. Based upon the picture from the last time I was up, I suspect Im going slow for THAT ski as well, but Im not sure. I have no idea how fast you should be going on the LX... but there is probably a recommended speed for that ski. 25 SEEMS slow, but Im not a good source.

Good luck this weekend... do you have another lake that you can use yet this year? Im hoping I still have 3-4 weekends left in my ski season, but that will be dependent on the water temp.


EDIT>>> saw a little more on a very bad connection, very choppy video (connection problem, not video problem), but see that you were trying to attack the wake more - the one I saw looked like you were leaned in pretty well, and I cant tell what happened, other than it looks like you went over the top of the ski. I really have to get a good connection to see more.

Check this out... Again, very hard for me to watch right now, but it is a 25% speed slowmo of a competition skier. Granted this is a course, and we are free skiing, but the technique is what I am striving for. A few of things jump WAY out at me... that I am going to work on next time out.

• Her weight is WAY back as she crosses the wake, and the ski up on edge. As soon as she crosses the wake, THEN the ski flattens out, and she coasts... until the next hard turn.
• The OUTRAGEOUS acceleration to the wake. Wow.
• How little the ski bounces as it crosses the wake compared to how my ski crosses if I am trying to "sneak" across the wake with the ski flat.
• The transition from coasting, to the turn... have to look at that more with a better connection.

The next video that came up was another 25% slowmo, but just not watchable on this connection.

Jeff

 

[firstx1017]

We sound like we both have the same problem finding observers - wish we lived close by as we'd flag for you guys!! It's funny you posted that video as I came across it last week - loved that it was in slo-mo as you can really see what she is doing. And I had read other articles that said after they cross the first wake they start to stand up - which you could totally see her doing in her video. Her leaning is what gets us - it is soooo extreme. Like I said, you think you are doing something one way and then the video proves you wrong. In watching my video both hubby and I seem to bend at the waist when crossing the wake. We have to lean - which is scary for me. I think if we get the leaning and turning down the ski and speed may be okay. The skis are made to go slower so if you go faster it was saying that your ski would be too much on top of the water for you to cut/turn. Turning and the pressure of the feet has us stumped. One article says to push down with your forward foot - then the guy we bought the skis from said to push down with your back foot to turn. So, I have no idea who is right or what to do.

Another article I read said to pull out hard then to stand up and "coast" then get in the strong position arms down and turn into the wake. When you saw her video you could see she was doing the same thing. But when I would try to coast it was a fail and I was being pulled back in so obviously my coasting is not really coasting since I'm still getting pulled.

I'd really like to know what pressure you do with your feet during the turning process so hopefully I could try that out this weekend. I'm just soooo confused right now. I am going to try to work on leaning back and not bending at the waist - but then again, I will think I'm leaning but when I see the video - obviously I won't be.

In reading more about the LX I think I may be over the weight limit and it is only 60 inches - which is REALLY short! So now I'm thinking I won't be able to get up on it. If not, I think I'll try the Mid SX and see if I can get up on that one.

Hope you get out next weekend. Thanks for your posts and advise!

 

[skibrain]

Regina is skiing behind a competition ski boat at a short line length.
? It has a smaller wake because it is a boat with no dead rise (flat bottom, not a v-shaped hull) and it is designed specifically to produce a small wake.
? At a short line length she is likely AHEAD of the rooster tail in a place in the wake that is even flatter.
? She is skiing at 34.2 mph and any boat will make less wake at a higher speed because it is displacing less water.

Regina is 31 yrs old and has been COMPETING since age 5. Currently the top ranked female skier IN THE WORLD. And her aggression behind the boat makes many strong, professional male skiers look like wimps. So while great to look at for inspiration, that is setting the bar a wee bit high.

It is perhaps like me (I have golfed less than a dozen times in my life and not for 15 years now) wondering why my swing at age 55, doesn't look as good as Tiger Woods. (or insert name of other top golfer). Is it my clubs? You could give me Tiger's clubs, his shoes and his glove and I would look like a noob.

I think it is really challenging to slalom ski behind any i/o boat. They just tend to throw a pretty big wake. But if that is what you have, work with it.
If you have a sectioned slalom line, try removing 15' or 22' and see if you like the place in the boat wake that the shorter rope puts you.

200 lb on a 67 combo at 30 mph seems like you would ride low. However I don't think ANY combo skis are designed for faster slalom. I would figure out how to get up on the water on the larger HO Mach I and ski at 32 mph. Do you have to drop a ski to do it? who cares? You will never be able to do much carving on a combo slalom. Bindings are in the wrong place. The rocker on the ski is wrong. etc etc. It would be sort of challenging on the Mid SX shaped type ski as well, but maybe better than the Big Easy. Maybe.

But here is the biggest and most important thing: Aside from comparing your technique to other more experienced skiers, are you having FUN? I ski because I think it's a gas. And if you are having fun cruising straight behind the boat on a tour of the lake, or jumping the larger wake of the boat you have and having fun, or skiing two at a time and having spray wars with your buddy or your kids.....do it because it is fun.

Cheers

 

[firstx1017]

Hey Skibrain - I can say that I honestly am not striving to be Regina that's for sure - I just really was amazed coming across her video and her slo-motion one was really insightful. What I want to work on is just crossing the wakes by cutting thru them rather than going over then flat bottom ski'd and bouncing all over the place. That's the extent that I want to do at 55! lol But sometimes, all the reading and video watching just confuses me. We do have an I/O Maxum Boat that does throw a big wake so trying to figure out what to do is out next goal. Last time out we tried a longer rope to try to be behind the wake - but we would need a super long rope. We were using a 75' rope with 11' added on and 5' of that is not used because our rope is attached to the tower and not at the back of the boat. But then we read that perhaps we should have a 60' rope - but the wake on the boat is bigger using a shorter rope. So then we wondered what size board and what speed we should be using. A wider board going faster would put the ski higher on top of the water wouldn't it? It looks like the Mid SX and the Mid LX both should be ski'd at 22-26 mph on the LX and 24-28 on the SX. What length rope should we be using - one to put us back behind the big wakes - which would mean a longer rope? Th speed seems okay it is just trying to turn the ski towards the wake and leaning back to cut thru the wake. We are not looking to do big rooster tail one handed slalom turns like Regina - we just want to be able to make a nice turn and cut thru the wake without bouncing over the wakes. Will we be able to do that on these boards or not? Any help or recommendation would be greatly appreciated!

 

[skibrain]

Here is a world-class water skier, Marcus Brown skiing slowly. 30 mph, still shorter rope at 22' off line, but he is dealing with some significant boat wake here.
His particular style keeps his torso more vertical and head upright, hips dropped to create ski angle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5vNXsMOzDg

 

[milehighjc]

Here is a world-class water skier, Marcus Brown skiing slowly. 30 mph, still shorter rope at 22' off line, but he is dealing with some significant boat wake here.
His particular style keeps his torso more vertical and head upright, hips dropped to create ski angle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5vNXsMOzDg

Interesting video... It looks like he enters the first wake in a very strong position, and then actually catches some air. By the time he gets to the second, he is already more upright, and coasting to the next ball. Not as wild as the Regina video (which I really enjoy watching), but MUCH more like what I am dealing with.

Regarding the "fun" statement... Fun is what it is ALL about for me. I dont necessarily even aspire to run a course, although I would try it... for FUN. Having said that, fun to me is improving a little every time out, and for as long as my body will take it, I will try to push the envelope. Im pretty sure dropping a ski is technically against the regs at the lake where I ski, but my neighbor is in the market for a jet ski. If he buys that, I think I could have him "chase" me, and pick up the dropped ski. However I really think getting up on my HO is going to happen... just have to get the feel of it. If I can find an observer for tomorrow morning, Ill be giving it another go.

I bought my boat to return to Slalom skiing. It probably is not a particularly good boat for slalom. The big heavy motor gives me a great hole shot, but the wake is fairly large. I put SmartTabs on it, that flattened the wake out a bit, but roughed up the water between the wakes a LOT. It has been a very good starter boat for me, but my wife and I area already talking about what is next - and inboard is the first criteria. She wants a boat that we could surf behind, I want a better wake to ski behind. I dont think those are really compatible objectives (at least in my price range), but Ill cross that bridge when we actually start looking again (probably late next season at the earliest).

 

[skibrain]

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