I am ashamed

ebbtide176

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Jan 22, 2002
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2,289
Re: I am ashamed

did i miss something, or was that tax cut before we lost the big financial center formerly known as the world trade center....? funny how we took a big hit in our budget over that one, eh? <br /><br />like i said before, you could always send that $300 back to the feds to help ease this deficit :D
 

ebbtide176

Commander
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Jan 22, 2002
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Re: I am ashamed

its ok SoulW, i agree with your thoughts, but you're only responsible to do the best you can with the gifts you were given. btw, i sent some extra 'help' your way, and i do believe you will receive it soon ;) soulfood buddy
 

dogsdad

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Re: I am ashamed

Sounds to me like SW needs a good healthy dose of good ol' fashioned optimism. <br /><br />Whatever the future holds, I will fight for what I know is right. Against impossible odds, I will raise the middle finger of my trigger hand ("the bird" originated during a battle between the English and the French many years ago when the French threatened to cut off the middle fingers of the English longbowmen if the dared fire; the English responded by displaying the said finger). fingers<br /><br />If I quit fighting now, why would I even want to live? I will NOT go quietly!<br /><br />-dd-
 

kd6nem

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Re: I am ashamed

SW, I hear ya. I'm afflicted with a big dose of the same pessimism, I'm afraid. But we must remember that we're ultimately on the winning side, the side of Good. This battle is not ultimately up to us to win. We participate, but victory or defeat is not determined by us. True, there is a lot of warped, distorted, damaged thinking and actions in this world, though it is not something WE can just force to be righted. But it is not all over yet. There will be more who get the real picture. Folks like you see to that. And whatever the outcome of this mess here, it is only a symptom of a much larger issue- one that WILL be settled decisively and justly. I understand your disappointment fully. Do I ever! But please remember that discouragement is a tool of the devil used to get us off track from where we ARE effective. As for me, I will NOT give up the fight for America, though I am learning to not invest quite so much emotion into what disappoints me. I am working at not taking it all so personally. (Which is not to say that I won't speak my mind from time to time!) Because are we not made to fret, worry, and live in anger or fear. Love and Truth are much more noble and powerful in the long run. We must remember Whose we are, do our part (even rendering unto Caesar- participating in our political process), then leave it all up to Him. His shoulders can handle it. Ours cannot.<br /><br />Hang in there, brother!
 

Link

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Apr 13, 2003
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4,221
Re: I am ashamed

:Link" hands LubeDude the Straight Jacket for "snapperbait" as requested! and another for PW2 "PW2" was actually civil on this post" <br />Almost made since (confused) <br /><br />LOL just having fun :)
 

rolmops

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Re: I am ashamed

Soulwinner.<br />Not being of your religious convictions,I cannot help but being slightly cynical about the way you claim to be a christian and at the same time condemn socialism and communism.<br />You see,when you read the bible (forgive me my ignorance, but I think it is the acts of the apostles)there are these small groups of very early christian communities that live in the holy city waiting for the return of the messiah.These groups share all their wealth equally and donate it all to the group for the greater good of the group.<br />I think that you have mixed,your religion with your politics and in the process you sometimes forget which is which.<br />About you reading Hitler's "Mein Kampf" and Karl Marx's "Das Kapital".<br />These books really do not belong on the same page or even the same bookshelf.Mein Kampf is the gospel of hatred,racism and genocide,while "Das Kapital" was written by a very dissillusioned old man, in an effort to lessen the suffering of the working people.Needless to say that both were misguided and both were implemented by powerseeking fanatics.<br />What I do appreciate in you is your effort to give others hope.
 

PW2

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Re: I am ashamed

See, snapper, here is where you and I disagree a bit. I actually liked RR's tax cuts.<br /><br />Reagan took over with double digit interest rates and all sorts of other economic problems. It was difficult to get investment capital to get the economy going when you could get a double digit return with no risk as an investor.<br /><br />To get the economy going again, he had to get investment going back into the economy, and the quickest and best way to do that at the time was thru modifications of the tax code.<br /><br />It wasn't the tax cuts, per se, that helped solve the problem, but the effect they had on the economic problems we faced at the time. Sure it increased the deficit, but at the time it was manageable and necessary.<br /><br />OTOH, the Bush tax cuts did not seem to be targeted at the problems we faced, but rather as some sort of idealogical policy. The current economy did not hinge on new investment, as with low single digit risk free returns, investment capital was not difficult to find. What it hinged on was consumer spending. To the extent that the middle class tax cuts (and yes the $300) helped the consumer, and put more money back into the economy, those did help. However, the cuts for the wealthy tax payers (they are already buying what they want) and the corporate welfare programs did little if anything to improve the economy, but as they were the bulk of the tax cuts, they drove up the deficit for no reason.<br /><br />Kind of like an outboard mechanic who remembers that 10 years ago when his motor was running bad, he changed the spark plugs and fixed it. Now he has a rod sticking out of the side of the engine block, and he keeps trying to change the spark plugs, because it worked before.<br /><br />Different problems require different solutions.
 

PW2

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Re: I am ashamed

Oh, and to answer the question of the difference between dems and communism. It's silly argument.<br /><br />There is a political spectrum, from left to right. On the right, taken to the extreme, is fascism and a sort of Darwinian survival of the fittest, master race type of philosophy. On the left, to the extreme, is indeed communism.<br /><br />Everyone is somewhere on that spectrum, and generally extremes on either side are regarded as bad. Somewhere near the middle is where we need to be. Within that smaller, middle area of the spectrum, there is certainly room for thoughtful debate.<br /><br />Do we really, as a society, want 44 million people without any health insurance? How many million is acceptable?<br /><br />What kind of social "safety net" is desirable? There is no mainstream political group, be they R's or D's, that suggest the answer to that is either "none" or "complete"<br /><br />Just as you can take to the extremes and say all Dems are communist, I can argue that all Repubs are fascists...But neither is true, and neither adds to rational political debate.
 

dogsdad

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Re: I am ashamed

Rolmops, the difference is that those people did what they did willingly and out of love and faith, not by governmental decree. And they were not Marxists! Marxism is an anethema to Christianity, and when you say "communism" today, it is generally taken to mean a Marxist political system.<br /><br />PW2, the spectrum theory of politics is just a little too limited in that it is actually possible to go far enough to the right or the left to meet on the backside. I am saying it's not a flat spectrum, but more like a ring.<br /><br /><br />-dd-
 

snapperbait

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Re: I am ashamed

Yep, PW2.. Circa 1970's, the country was for all intents and purposes "broke" when Reagan took office and I'll admit Reaganomics in its true form, strictly for getting the economy going again, was sucessful... The cuts used for economic stimulation would have left a managible deficit that would, and could, have been taken care of in short order... Excessive spending is what got us in trouble.. <br /><br />I know what your all going to say.. "snap, you idiot.. What about the The Cold War?"...<br /> I know, I know, fight the cold war, yada, yada, yada, blah, blah, blah...<br /><br /> I'm thankful that Reagan finally came to his senses and realized that the ONLY way to win the cold war was through diplomacy, not by spending to build more and more nuclear arms... <br /><br />Unfortunately, the cold war pretty much broke the USSR in economic terms.. It's a shame really... Had diplomacy started sooner, maybe the former USSR could have been an even greater and more willing allied today, especially when we need all the help we can get.... I dunno.. just speculation on my part...<br /><br /> If only our leaders of today would learn from past mistakes.. Oh well... :rolleyes: <br /><br />Anywhoooo.. I guess the only question I have for our leaders is, "is a real balanced budget just too much to ask for, give or take a $billion$ ?".... :confused:
 

Boomyal

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Re: I am ashamed

Originally posted by PW2:<br /> <br />It wasn't the tax cuts, per se, that helped solve the problem, but the effect they had on the economic problems we faced at the time. Sure it increased the deficit, but at the time it was manageable and necessary.
PW2, your first sentence is kind of like John Kerry's "I voted for it before I voted against it". This must be some kind of otherworld logic. Of course it was the TAX CUTS! It signifigantly lowered the top marginal rates for the people who were in a position to act as the economic engine. They could only do that if THEIR MONEY was in their control.<br /><br />As for your second sentence, the RR tax cuts did not increase the deficit. It, so dramatically, reved up the economy that gum't revenues skyrocketed. It was the spending increases from a Democratic congress, albiet somewhat exacerbated by RR's military buildup.
 

Boomyal

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Re: I am ashamed

Originally posted by snapperbait:<br /> Unfortunately, the cold war pretty much broke the USSR in economic terms.. It's a shame really... Had diplomacy started sooner, maybe the former USSR could have been an even greater and more willing allied today, especially when we need all the help we can get.... I dunno.. just speculation on my part...
Ya don't think that the USSR would of just continued to use their money to keep an iron fist on their own population as well as continue to foment world wide communist expansion?
 

Boomyal

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Re: I am ashamed

Originally posted by dogsdad:<br /> Rolmops, the difference is that those people did what they did willingly and out of love and faith, not by governmental decree. And they were not Marxists! Marxism is an anethema to Christianity, and when you say "communism" today, it is generally taken to mean a Marxist political system.<br /><br />PW2, the spectrum theory of politics is just a little too limited in that it is actually possible to go far enough to the right or the left to meet on the backside. I am saying it's not a flat spectrum, but more like a ring.<br /><br /><br />-dd-
Well said, dogsdad! That's one little distinction that the 'progressives' conveniently leave out. Funny how they selectively quote from the 'interesting history book' that they do not believe in.
 

kd6nem

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Re: I am ashamed

Snapperbait- Perhaps you think the totally unreasonable can be reasoned with? Diplomacy with the former soviets only worked when they felt they had much to lose if they didn't cave in- which seldom worked anyway thru the cold war years. Yes, their economy was in ruins but only because of their (continuing)internal corruption and lack of motivation created by an untenable social experiment foisted upon them by a few violent extremists. The only other option seems to have been force their hand much sooner. If JFK had pulled the trigger on Cuba we might have found out how well that wouldn't have worked. Remember it was the Russians who were the ones trying to systematically take over the world. We merely stood up to them. It was them who were not being reasonable. They clearly took the lead in treachery and dishonesty during that time. I keep hearing "more diplomacy, more diplomacy!..." Diplomacy with the irrational and lunatics only works when you also hold a gun to their head, so to speak. Otherwise they'll happily cut you to shreds given the least opportunity. How much of the world would you have face daily oppression? Had we not stepped up to the plate when we did most of the world would be speaking Russian and starving. Reagan made it clear that we weren't going soft- THAT set the stage for the Russians to listen to diplomacy. Wouldn't have accomplished anything until they were ready to listen.<br /><br />PW2- But you forget or chose to ignore the huge drift left we've made in the last century. The middle is no longer the middle. Redefining what is middle, liberal, or conservative only skews the reference point, never brings us any closer to a working solution. Fact is we are left leaning today, and as a result the government is far larger than is necessary or healthy, and we spend way too much servicing the debt and expanding a (for now) mild form of socialism on a people who once stood proud and took care of themselves. It has become a millstone around the nation's neck. Only if we restore the necessity of individual responsibility can we get back onto truly solid ground! Even JFK realized that the emphasis for individuals needed to be on contributing to the benefit of the whole, not having their hand out.
 

snapperbait

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Re: I am ashamed

Ya don't think that the USSR would of just continued to use their money to keep an iron fist on their own population as well as continue to foment world wide communist expansion?
So what if they ruled their own with an iron fist? As long as they mind their P's and Q's, what business is it of ours if they want to be a communist country?<br /><br />As for pushing communist expantion, is'nt that kind of like how we imposed capitalism on the Soviets? Oh yeah, they're doing just fine and dandy under our capitalism, granted russias capitalist system is just really getting started.... <br /><br />Maybe Russias new capitalism is better for them, maybe it's not.. I'm not Russian so I'll leave it up to them to say, cause it's not my business..<br /><br />Our ideals don't necessarily work for every society, Boomyal...<br /><br />As for America, Go Capitalism! :D
 

kd6nem

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Re: I am ashamed

Snapper,<br />You are quite right that our ideals don't work for everyone. We agree on that! But to ignore the severe oppression, suffering, and corruption of the former soviet union or anywhere else and imply that it must be OK is rather callous, IMO. No, THEY did not want to be a communist country. No one ever asked them. It happened at gunpoint by a small group of radicals, remember? And the Russkies had a severly broken and corrupt system. They wanted and needed an alternative which THEY embraced. We did not force it down their throat. Only problem with their economy now is the former Commie Bosses are the ones who still largely control the economy now. They selfishly benefitted from whatever they could, as parasites tend to do. Crooked before, still crooked now. The difference being at least now there is hope, and an individual has opportunity.<br />
As for pushing communist expantion, isn't that kind of like how we imposed capitalism on the Soviets?
There is absolutely no similarity whatsoever between the communist expansion and our encouragement to give the people a real chance. While I defend your right to speak, I believe this to be a grossly superficial comparison. It simply ignores what really happened. How could we have imposed anything on the Soviets? Their own stubbornness broke their own economy, and we offerred a chance to escape the darkness and rebuild. In what way is that like oppression, fear of violence, and hunger?<br /><br />Note- I edited this post because I found I was not taking my own advice from a previous post on this thread. I apologize for being so strong in my previous wording. <br />BP
 

kd6nem

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Re: I am ashamed

By the way, Soulwinner, my apologies for participating in the hijacking of this thread! Seems that we forgot the point you were making. I hope we didn't add salt to your wounds!<br />BP
 
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