Hydrofoils on lower units?

acdc96

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Lately I've seen a lot of people with bolt on or clamp on hydrofoils on their outboards and stern drives.
Why do people put these on their drives?
 

Maclin

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Re: Hydrofoils on lower units?

They see it on another boat and like the looks of it.
 

acdc96

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Re: Hydrofoils on lower units?

It kinda looks stupid in my opinion. It's just a waste of money that could be put to better use.
It doesn't enhance performance it seems like it would make the engine use a lot more fuel to compensate for the drag and weight added.
I don't plan on getting one or buy a motor that had a bolt on one .
 

alldodge

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Re: Hydrofoils on lower units?

Just like in the previous thread, ondarvr stated it very well
And people continue to respond with no actual knowledge or experience of the subject, they use hearsay and assumption to come to an uninformed conclusion.

As with iboats these are most allways opinions, and like other things we all have one of. This is also my opinion but I did install one, and still use it. Bought my 95 Rinker 232 new and installed the stringray foil after about 2 years. Reason to do it was to see if it would get up on plane quicker pulling skiers. My boat weights in at 3800 and has a 7.4L bravo 1 outdrive. The boat is not under powered and runs real well with and without the foil. It does come out of the water faster with then without the foil. The foil allows me to run at lower rpm and remain on plane. Trim tabs are better because they can be brought all the way up to reduce drag running WOT, the foil will reduce the top end maybe 2 mph.

I wouldn't put it on an under powered boat because the increase drag will only make things worste. Also would not use it on a heavy boat like my cruiser because of the increase load on the drive. I think they work great on a boat which perfomans well already but you don't want to go to the expense of tabs, and you want to plane faster.

One additional note, I have used different props to achieve the same results by reducing pitch and planed just as fast. Only issue with reducing pitch I had to watch close to not over rev.
 

rallyart

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Re: Hydrofoils on lower units?

The reason they put them on, acdc96, is to fix a problem with the operation of their boat. Sometimes it's because they want to improve their boat and buy in to the marketing pitch, so they try them. A hydrofoil is an inexpensive easily installed piece that will do more to get you out of the hole when you start up than anything else, dollar for dollar. It will also let you plane at a slower speed and have your hull at a better pitch at slow speeds if you are running in a storm.
They have issues with making steering stiffer, adding some spray behind the transom. They don't change the inherent cause of the problem, they just patch the issue. Tabs do a similar fix for more money but without the same side affects.
 

ondarvr

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Re: Hydrofoils on lower units?

And I see it again in this thread, people saying things without an understanding of how a foil (bad description) works, or what it can (might) do.
 

bruceb58

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Re: Hydrofoils on lower units?

I had a foil on the 21' 1987 Bayliner with a 5.0L engine that I had. Boat came with it from the previous owner. If you did a hard turn with it, the stern had a tendency to release and whip out. It also slowed me down around 3 MPH on my top end.

It was a Doel fin. I thought it affected the handling in a dangerous way. I took it off.
 
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rallyart

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Re: Hydrofoils on lower units?

ondarvr, you've stated the same thing several times in recent posts yet not what a foil does or how it works. Perhaps you could enlighten us? I have owned and used foils on boats. I've also designed and built wings and understand something about fluid dynamics, both compressible and non compressible. Only two people in this thread have commented on the original question by the OP and both stated their opinions from empirical evidence.

edit:
Oops, three now.
And I did see where you quoted from a previous thread but didn't show a thorough understanding of how a foil works but you at least were not negative.
 
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alldodge

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Re: Hydrofoils on lower units?

Just remembered something I left out. With the fin installed I can trim higher then I could without it. The stringray (LINK) type is curved down at the back end. This curve helps lift the stern up and bow down. This pitch change allows the trim to come up further, maybe close to why bass type boats install jack plates. The boat comes out of the water more because of this, at least it appears to me. Boat never washed out even in fast tight turns.

Opinion: I have seen the not so rigged type on many other boats. The ones that clamp to each side, and the rubber tail type that just sticks out the back. They are kind of flimsy from being able to grab a hold of them and can bend them by hand. As in previous post I also would not put a foil on a bravo 3, just to long and torque that far out could be an issue.
 

bruceb58

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Re: Hydrofoils on lower units?

As in previous post I also would not put a foil on a bravo 3, just to long and torque that far out could be an issue.
And you probably wouldn't ever need it either. Duoprops work so much better than a single prop it isn't funny.
 

JimS123

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Re: Hydrofoils on lower units?

Lately I've seen a lot of people with bolt on or clamp on hydrofoils on their outboards and stern drives.
Why do people put these on their drives?

Because many boat manufacturers today don't have designs that optimize performance. Today, just put more HP on it and spend more money and you'll be happy. Boats of yesteryear didn't need them.

After installing a DoelFin on 5 different boats (and currently owning 3 of them), and then optimizing the setup and achieving better hole shot, faster speed and improved fuel economy, I give up trying to splain it.
 

bruceb58

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Re: Hydrofoils on lower units?

Because many boat manufacturers today don't have designs that optimize performance.
So let's see....the same company that owns Bayliner, SeaRay and Mercruiser aren't optimizing their performance by adding $5 worth of plastic to their sterndrives? Just think what a huge marketing advantage they would have if they could do that.
 

V153

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Re: Hydrofoils on lower units?

So let's see....the same company that owns Bayliner, SeaRay and Mercruiser aren't optimizing their performance by adding $5 worth of plastic to their sterndrives? Just think what a huge marketing advantage they would have if they could do that.
Hee hee hee
 

thumpar

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Re: Hydrofoils on lower units?

Make that:

Aquador
Bayliner
Boston Whaler
Brunswick Commercial & Government Products
Crestliner
Cypress Cay
Harris FloteBote
Lowe Boats
Lund
Meridian Yachts
Princecraft
Quicksilver
Rayglass
Sea Ray
Uttern
Valiant

All under Brunswich which owns Mercury and Mercruiser plus some others under various divisions.
 
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ondarvr

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Re: Hydrofoils on lower units?

I had typed a long response on my phone and then fat fingered a key and deleted the whole thing, so I’ll try it one more time.

“Foil” is a bad name for the product and has more to do with marketing than how it’s supposed to function. The foil shape is almost irrelevant in what it does, but when they started making them out of plastic, which needed to be thicker than metal, it was a good marketing ploy. All it does is help prevent the prop from sucking air from the area right above it during hard acceleration, no different from the existing AV plate (anti ventilation plate) on every outboard. This defeats the argument that if foils were a good thing outboards would come stock with them, because they all do.

Trims tabs and foils are not designed to do the same thing in the same way, but there is some overlap in the final results. Tabs are designed to exert a downward force on the water to raise the stern and achieve many beneficial results. A foil stops the prop from sucking air…but when used incorrectly may also do a bit of the same thing. This misuse is where the disappointment and negative comments come from. A person bolts it on thinking it’s a cure-all for every issue they have with the boats performance and finds out it may actually make things worse in some ways. To use a foil and find out if your hull and motor combo can benefit from one you will need to raise and lower the motor on the transom to see if you can get the motor higher with the foil. If it makes no difference in performance then there is no reason to use it, but in some cases you can mount the motor an inch or more higher and make good gains in performance. This can include a better hole shot, not due it dragging in the water, but because there is now only water around the prop, not air. It can also reduce the amount of bow rise because with the prop up higher it has less leverage on the hull. A higher top speed and better MPG’s because there is less of the gearcase in the water so there is less drag (again…the foil should not be dragging in the water at speed). Trim tabs can do none of these things, they just push down on the water.

Now if you have an IO, little or no adjusting can be done, so you need to live with the good and bad, there is potential for both, many times the trade off on the bad side is worth some possible improvements in other areas, it’s up to the owner. But IO’s can have some real handling issues with foils (so can OB’s), that foil dragging in the water at 45+ MPH can have a huge affect on the boat, sometimes it can be downright scary. This is where the exact size and shape of the foil can make a big difference. But for the most part trim tabs are a better bet on an IO, plus there is rarely a downside to installing tabs, it’s almost universal that you will see at least some benefit from them.

In a thread a long time ago I compared tabs and foils to hammers and crescent wrenches. Everybody knows a hammer is good at pounding on things, it’s what it was designed to do. Many people also use a crescent wrench as a hammer to pound on things, it’s a poor substitute for a hammer though, and is totally the wrong way to use it. This is where I find it frustrating when people try to use a foil in place of trim tabs and then complain about the results.
 
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alldodge

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Re: Hydrofoils on lower units?

Because many boat manufacturers today don't have designs that optimize performance. Today, just put more HP on it and spend more money and you'll be happy. Boats of yesteryear didn't need them.

After installing a DoelFin on 5 different boats (and currently owning 3 of them), and then optimizing the setup and achieving better hole shot, faster speed and improved fuel economy, I give up trying to splain it.

This cracks me up, doelfin, one of those flimsy things I mentioned above. Also tried it 5 times with no luck

And you probably wouldn't ever need it either. Duoprops work so much better than a single prop it isn't funny.
Agree, but just wanted to be clear about my opinion. The B3 has a better hole shot but looses out in over 40 mph.

So let's see....the same company that owns Bayliner, SeaRay and Mercruiser aren't optimizing their performance by adding $5 worth of plastic to their sterndrives? Just think what a huge marketing advantage they would have if they could do that.

That would be a good one for 5 bucks, wonder were you can find anything for a boat that cost 5

Sure wish we had an icon/smile for you guys going off the deep end :rolleyes:
 

bruceb58

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Re: Hydrofoils on lower units?

In a thread a long time ago I compared tabs and foils to hammers crescent wrenches. Everybody knows a hammer is good at pounding on things, it’s what it was designed to do. Many people also use a crescent wrench as a hammer to pound on things, it’s a poor substitute for a hammer though, and is totally the wrong way to use it. This is where I find it frustrating when people try to use a foil in place of trim tabs and then complain about the results.
Because when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
 

bruceb58

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Re: Hydrofoils on lower units?

That would be a good one for 5 bucks, wonder were you can find anything for a boat that cost 5
Just the same price for the plastic that the stingray one is made out of. Actually, would cost Mercruiser much much less! :)

The B3 has a better hole shot but looses out in over 40 mph.
Agreed. Top end is reduced with the duoprop.
 
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