how to increase miliage when towing

[bigdee]

Re: how to increase miliage when towing

Here is an interesting tool to play with http://ecomodder.com/forum/tool-aero-rolling-resistance.php The default data is close to average so just plug in your vehicle weight and boat weight

 

[Scott Danforth]

Re: how to increase miliage when towing

Another question for the OP. how far do you tow the boat? if your spending most of your time only towing 30 miles or less. that is a lot of trips that you will need to take to justify the expense of different gear ratios, etc.

Being in Abrams, my guess is that you hit the bay, along with maybe a few of the rivers, and some of the inland lakes.

Just a thought. I did the math in my old Durango, and realized that at 9gpm towing 5500# boat, it wasnt worth it for me to change anything for the $250 in potential savings per year.

 

[Georgesalmon]

Re: how to increase miliage when towing

I do hit the bay for Walleye, but most of my trips with this boat are to Algoma, Sturgeon Bay or Two Rivers. I think about 70mi each way. Also a couple of trips to Erie a year. I fish the smaller lakes around here and UP but have three other smaller "tin" boats for that. 14' jon with 9.9 for rivers, 17' V hull with 50 Yamaha 4 stroke for lakes and another new 17' jon which will be dedicated to duck hunting. After reading these posts I think I will just have to live with it. Already using synthetic oil, will add a "cold" air intake I think and maybe look at exhaust options. I probably won't live long enough to reap the benifits from fuel savings with a gear change if that would even help.

 

[Scott Danforth]

Re: how to increase miliage when towing

be warned with a k&n FIPK. I installed one, saved 10% on fuel economy for towing, however that was after I quit mashing the trottle for a few tanks because it sounded cool.

you could always store your boat at a storage unit between TR and Sturgeon Bay (kewaunee or algoma). that would cost you $35 per month. just drive over there, hook up, and go fishing then again, you would have to boat there 3 out of 4 weekends to make the math work in your favor.

 

[joewithaboat]

Re: how to increase miliage when towing

I do hit the bay for Walleye, but most of my trips with this boat are to Algoma, Sturgeon Bay or Two Rivers. I think about 70mi each way. Also a couple of trips to Erie a year. I fish the smaller lakes around here and UP but have three other smaller "tin" boats for that. 14' jon with 9.9 for rivers, 17' V hull with 50 Yamaha 4 stroke for lakes and another new 17' jon which will be dedicated to duck hunting. After reading these posts I think I will just have to live with it. Already using synthetic oil, will add a "cold" air intake I think and maybe look at exhaust options. I probably won't live long enough to reap the benifits from fuel savings with a gear change if that would even help.

That cost return is a hard reality. I would love to justify a 1 Ton turbo diesel for towing. I have almost taken the plunge a few times. Lots of my buddies have them. Listening to them whine about maintenance and fuel cost keeps me in check. I only tow maybe 5% of my driving. I think i am going to look into that new turbo ford V6 soon though.

 

[joewithaboat]

Re: how to increase miliage when towing

be warned with a k&n FIPK. I installed one, saved 10% on fuel economy for towing, however that was after I quit mashing the trottle for a few tanks because it sounded cool.

you could always store your boat at a storage unit between TR and Sturgeon Bay (kewaunee or algoma). that would cost you $35 per month. just drive over there, hook up, and go fishing then again, you would have to boat there 3 out of 4 weekends to make the math work in your favor.

I have been using K&N filters for years. I have seen a lot of bad press lately about them not actually filtering all that well. It has me second guessing using them. :redface:

 

[bnicov]

Re: how to increase miliage when towing

You have to live with it or get a newer vehicle. Every little mod you do is going to change the way the vehicle was designed to perform and may even cost you some mileage. Towing is expensive for fuel PERIOD! I get around 14-15mpg with my minivan towing the boat and that is keeping it under 65mph. Normally, it runs between 22-27mpg depending on how and where it's driven.

 

[Scott Danforth]

Re: how to increase miliage when towing

I have been using K&N filters for years. I have seen a lot of bad press lately about them not actually filtering all that well. It has me second guessing using them. :redface:

if you keep them oiled k&n filters work fine. Had them on my Durango since I owned it. I abused it for 170K miles myself. The Jettas each had them. sold one at 230,000 miles and one at 111,800 miles. I run them in everything I own (including the mopeds)

the key is to maintain them.

 

[joewithaboat]

Re: how to increase miliage when towing

if you keep them oiled k&n filters work fine. Had them on my Durango since I owned it. I abused it for 170K miles myself. The Jettas each had them. sold one at 230,000 miles and one at 111,800 miles. I run them in everything I own (including the mopeds)

the key is to maintain them.

Yea me to. Most times i clean and oil them every oil change. Most things i had them on i had 2 so i always had a clean one. Ive got two vehicles that Ive had them on for 150k +. The tests i had seen on them showed them to actually filter better when they were dirty. The first time a heard of it was from a group of motor cycle friends. I have seen stuff online about the same. Haven't taken the time to look into it. Sure hope it turns out to be bunk.

 

[dingbat]

Re: how to increase miliage when towing

Yea, we still kick there butts around the race track... they can laugh all they want.

Dollar for dollar have been taking it to them lately. The Caddy and Corvette have pounded them for last few years.

Heck the 2011 Mustang GT beat the new v8 M3 BMW in an all out performance comparison.You could buy 2 Mustangs for the price of an M3.

Must have been a different comparison. According to Motor Trend the M3 handled better and was quicker around the track even thou the Mustang has a 25% displacement advanatge (4.0l vs. 5.0l).

Do we take Randy's advice and name the Mustang, even in defeat, the winner? No. on this day, the Mustang is beaten fair and square where it matters most.

Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests..._bmw_m3_comparison/viewall.html#ixzz1tXMacWEw

 

[QC]

Re: how to increase miliage when towing

There are so many things to consider in this discussion and so hard to respond to each post and all of the good and, maybe not so good, info. I have been in the heavy-duty truck engine business my entire career. Fuel economy improvements are what I have focused on for the last 15 years. It is important to note that economy is not always about efficiency. Ultimately you want this stuff to save you money, and Scott's comments regarding payback are extremely important. I happen to like efficiency stuff just because, but you need to decide if this is about money or not. If it is about money, then very few of the items being discussed will pencil out. Even some of the less costly ideas. Of course I am not talking about air pressure, but even a $700 custom tow cover will be hard to pay back for most of us. If you need a new cover anyway, then that's different . . .

I have told a story here before about "Magic Gas Pills". Of course they were bogus, and are basically moth balls. But people I respect were reporting better MPG, and that absolutely convinced me that anybody can be a victim of the Placebo Effect even with something that should be objective like fuel mileage. People want these things to work, and somehow that manipulates their brains and their driving habits to a point that they report even 30% improvements. Trust me, vehicle OEMs will spend a TON of money for 3%, and these people are reporting 30% by throwing moth balls in their tanks :facepalm: You don't think OEMs know how to spec an air cleaner? CAFE is a flippin' HUGE deal.

There are also some weird comments regarding required horsepower for given road loads, and I suspect the posts are just incomplete. You really can't make blanket claims about thermal efficiency and then discuss different displacements and technologies, and draw any conclusions from that. The fact is that every single engine speed point (RPM) and every load point at that RPM have different thermal efficiencies. This is especially true for an Otto cycle engine as I kind of mentioned above. Diesels maintain their thermal efficiency better across the entire load and speed map. And this BTW, is kinda why these rear end ratio discussions are actually bass ackwards. Yes, some people report better fuel by raising the numeric ratio to reduce lugging (see Placebo comment), but the FACT is that a lugged engine (Otto for sure, and diesel sort of too) is better on fuel. So the thought that you can improve cruise efficiency by changing the rear end is pretty much false. You might as well tow in third gear if that's what you want. Why isn't that better on fuel? Same thing with a vacuum gauge. If high vacuum is the goal for good fuel efficiency, then just drive around in 1st gear. higher vacuum than the same road speed in 2nd, and higher still than 3rd etc. So why not?

 

[Scott Danforth]

Re: how to increase miliage when towing

QC, in the defense of the OEM's and choosing an intake tract, they do need to balance dirt holding capacity, cost, noise, packaging in addition to fuel economy.

keeping the intake and exhaust noise down is a trade-off for economy. then again having soft tires for a smooth ride does not help fuel economy either.

 

[QC]

Re: how to increase miliage when towing

QC, in the defense of the OEM's and choosing an intake tract, they do need to balance dirt holding capacity, cost, noise, packaging in addition to fuel economy.

keeping the intake and exhaust noise down is a trade-off for economy. then again having soft tires for a smooth ride does not help fuel economy either.

Yeah, I agree Scott, but I think I would argue we have to consider those same trade offs. How much is a K and N for say a 2008 GM 1500? I don't know. Is there third party controlled test data? If so we can do a quickee payback analysis. Obviously we are not as concerned about noise, but cost and packaging matter to us and K and N right? And, yes, all of these things are tradeoffs, tires, speed, reserve power, even aerodynamics etc. etc.

 

[Mischief Managed]

Re: how to increase miliage when towing

Not sure where you are getting your numbers...

Apparently you haven't looked at the new CAFE standards coming up in the future. So you think they will meet them by cutting weight only?:facepalm:

All kinds of small things will add up to the gains needed. Variable valve timing, direct injection, and cylinder management will be the biggest part of it. Probably lots of turbo's as well.

I promise you that when my cruise is set on 70mph and Im getting 28 mpg its making a lot more than 15 hp!!! It takes more than 15 hp just to spin the accessories

The easiest way to improve fuel efficiency is to reduce weight and drag. Drag comes in many forms, rolling resistance, aerodynamic drag, parasitic losses, and pumping losses.

Variable valve timing, direct injection and other stuff can make an engine make more power, but those advances do not necessarily change the amount fuel used to make each HP. If efficiency is improved, it's not a large amount and it's usually just reduction of parasitic and pumping losses due to the use of a smaller engine with larger throttle openings that leads to improvements in efficiency.

By bigdee's calculation, you are using 2.5 gallons per hour to get 28 MPG at 70 MPH. That equates to 37.5 HP. Sounds pretty reasonable to me. If you were only using 15 HP, your mileage would be 70 MPG, not 28 MPG.

 

[Georgesalmon]

Re: how to increase miliage when towing

Well, I spent Sunday refiting and reinforcing my old boat cover. It looks a lot better now and gonna try it next time I go. Have nothing to lose. I have not pulled the boat with it on before because I was afraid it would rip off. Now with all new stitching and sunbrella reinforcing I think it will hold up. Most covers are "mooring" covers and not really made for towing at least thats what this one was.

 

[Scott Danforth]

Re: how to increase miliage when towing

Gee, no one liked the cheap and simple solution of a quality boat tarp and want to redign the tow vehicle instead? Umm, why?

Because we skip over the obvious :facepalm:

Yeah, I agree Scott, but I think I would argue we have to consider those same trade offs. How much is a K and N for say a 2008 GM 1500? I don't know. Is there third party controlled test data? If so we can do a quickee payback analysis. Obviously we are not as concerned about noise, but cost and packaging matter to us and K and N right? And, yes, all of these things are tradeoffs, tires, speed, reserve power, even aerodynamics etc. etc.

QC, good point on payback, and based on that

Here is what I know: a k&N FIPK for an '08 Silverado with the 4.8-6.0 will run you $255 and caries CARB EO D-269-37. and average fuel prices around here are $3.90

here is the speculation: the aftermarket filters improve fuel economy up to 10% (I have only seen 5% - see below)

here is some logic: now lets say you drive on average 30,000 miles and get an average all around MPG of 17. Thats 1764 gallons of fuel you have burned thru. now, if we assume only a 5% increase in economy for overall, that is 88 gallons of fuel (or $344 with todays average price). payback within 9 months.

I do keep track of fuel economy of each one of my vehicles. I know that adding the K&N did help my general economy in the durango by 5% overall, and nearly 10% when towing at 60mph. I also know that the first 2 tank fulls the economy was halved simply because I was mashing the throttle everywhere I could just to hear the intake noise.

Now, if we simply put a fitted cover on the boat (referring to Bubba's comment and playing on your aerodynamics comment) from a company like dow canvas, and reduce the drag of the boat by 10%, we can gain 10% of the towing fuel mileage back. if we assume 10mpg to begin with, and are now at 11. Lets us 2000 miles for towing, since the OP stated where he pulls the boat. the difference is about 20 gallons of fuel, or $78. can you get a form fitting cover for $78 for payback in the first season? No. however if there is a need for a cover (to keep boat cushions, PFD's, and cooler lids from flying out of the boat on the highway). then there is the added benefit of 10% increase in towing economy from the cover.

 

[QC]

Re: how to increase miliage when towing

I agree with how you present this, Scott. And it is exactly how I would do this to begin with. See here: http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=545496

I just really struggle with the expected results. 10% is huge for either example. There is no way for me to question your assumptions without me doubting you. There is no intention for me to offend ANYONE, and I love your posts. This is why I say third party data. Sooooooo hard to get!!! I literally try everyday for a variety of products and projects.

 

[joewithaboat]

Re: how to increase miliage when towing

Must have been a different comparison. According to Motor Trend the M3 handled better and was quicker around the track even thou the Mustang has a 25% displacement advanatge (4.0l vs. 5.0l).



Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests..._bmw_m3_comparison/viewall.html#ixzz1tXMacWEw

If you actually read it you will see that the mustang wins the 1/4 mile, braking, g pad, and only with a pro driver does it loose by .09 on the road course.

With the 27k in savings... one could spend some money on shocks which is the only reason it didn't win the road course, as was mentioned in the article.

I'm actually a pretty big fan of BMW by the way. My brother has owned 2 M3's and he doesn't turn wrenches. I have quite a bit of wrench time on them. In the past i didn't care much for mustangs. My other brother has a 2011 and its pretty impressive. My teenage daughter has a 1997 its a turd.

 

[joewithaboat]

Re: how to increase miliage when towing

Interesting filter test???

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest3.htm

 

[joewithaboat]

Re: how to increase miliage when towing

Same thing with a vacuum gauge. If high vacuum is the goal for good fuel efficiency, then just drive around in 1st gear. higher vacuum than the same road speed in 2nd, and higher still than 3rd etc. So why not?

:facepalm:

I guess i didn't state the obvious that you should remain in high gear. So while trying to find your most efficient cruise speed or how much throttle to use, or not use, while pulling a grade wouldn't the highest vacuum reading in your cruising gear (D or O/D) be where your best mpg would come at? ...Yes. If you have a manual trans you can also use it to adjust your shift points for peak efficiency.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/how-to/4274813

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/how-to/maintenance/4294223