How to define justice. A moral question

[POINTER94]

I am a member of a club. We have a place we go to with an honor bar (lets call it a clubhouse). One of the members was caught on the surveilance camera making a drink and placing a 10 dollar bill on the register, and then making change. Later he came back and took the ten off the top of the register. Some would call this stealing and have this member thrown out of the club. By any definintion it is stealing. But if it was simply an accident on his part, which he claims it was, and stealing in my opinion involves intent, is he a theif?<br /><br />Be advised that this member has given hundreds of hours of volunteer time and there has never been any previous indication of theft of any kind from this or any other member. (the camera was a pre-emptive tool for those with suspicious minds) This has become a real political football at the club and some went as far as trying to involve the police. The board has found him guilty based on the tape from the camera and a meeting of the entire membership has been called to decide whether to throw him out of the club. They need 3/4 of the membership at the meeting to vote yes he should be removed to throw him out. Not really relevent but this member has Multiple Sceroyosis, is 53, never married.<br /><br />What do you do?

 

[achris]

Re: How to define justice. A moral question

Tough one.... I guess I'd be asking to see the tape.<br /><br />One side would be the hundreds of hours of work and the other is as a deterent to those who could think that if one has gotten away with it, so can they. <br /><br />Would a compromise be an option? Get him to repay the $10 and the price of the drink again.<br /><br />In the end, it'll be your call as a rank and file member of the club. What sort of message do you want to send?<br /><br />Chris..............

 

[SpinnerBait_Nut]

Re: How to define justice. A moral question

If he knew what he was doing at the time of removing the $10 back from the top of the register, then he stole it, plus the cost of the drink.<br /><br />Hate to call anyone a theif without seeing the evidence, but you said it was on tape.<br /><br />He knew he put the money there and what it was for, so IMO, he stole it.<br /><br />Same difference if you or another member took it.

 

[dogsdad]

Re: How to define justice. A moral question

It sounds to me as though it was an honest, absent-minded mistake. Surely this individual knows about the surveillance camera. I have a hard time thinking he would believe he could get away with it. There must have been a distraction of some kind, maybe.<br /><br />I would assume the membership knows him and his character, so the best thing to do is let them vote and decide. Surely they will choose the correct course. If he is the type to be a petty thief, they should know.<br /><br /><br />-dd-

 

[JB]

Re: How to define justice. A moral question

Only the "suspect" knows what was on his mind. <br /><br />Everybody else has to guess and a lot of them will be wrong.<br /><br />Let it go. "Time wounds all heels."

 

[cmyers_uk]

Re: How to define justice. A moral question

I cant understand how its an accident. Oh look there $10 on the till it must be mine? I think he needs to explain exactly why he took $10 off the till in the first place. Basically though every member must decide whether to give him the benefit of the doubt / second chance.

 

[gaugeguy]

Re: How to define justice. A moral question

Video tape evidence is hard to deny. I have no use for a thief, especially when the "honor system" is being used for something. My vote, guilty.<br /><br />Maybe you could add something to the verdict like eviction from the club for a year, but he continues to volunteer for that year to rebuild the trust he tore down. After the year another vote is to be held to see if he is worthy for readmittance.

 

[mellowyellow]

Re: How to define justice. A moral question

like GG's idea, some middle ground seems appropriate.

 

[roscoe]

Re: How to define justice. A moral question

Not really relevent but this member has Multiple Scleroyosis.(sp)..

??<br />Actually may be relevant, if he has been having troubles lately.<br />Co-worker wandered around in our parkinglot for an hour one day, trying to find his car, but he didn't have a car.<br /><br />Barring a real good reason for why he would walk up and take the money, I think a punishment is called for.

 

[POINTER94]

Re: How to define justice. A moral question

Tipping my hand a bit I am leaning towards dogsdad position. Do I get kicked out if I eat too many after dinner mints? This guy has had positions of responsiblity where he could have taken thousands of dollars, and a tape shows an action not an intent. I have not seen the tape but those who did say it is clear he took the ten on the register. In total he took $8 and a drink. I am uncomfortable removing someone who has given so much for such a small offense if it is an offense at all. There is also a strong political component in the drive to have him expelled. One member really is after this guy after a disagreement on an asthetic/cosmetic change to the clubhouse. But, theft is theft and it is difficult to decide intent. Just hate to target a strong contributor for such a paltry amount. The embarrassment generated to this member is now way beyond anything else that can be done IMHO.<br /><br />I personally think the camera is of greater concern than the loss of $8. We are all suppose to be honest and responsible. Sends the wrong message of what and who we are...

 

[knobby]

Re: How to define justice. A moral question

If he took it, he needed it. It's 10 bucks, not hardly the price of a friend either way.

 

[Parrott_head]

Re: How to define justice. A moral question

I'm with GG too. I think a probation of some sort with full reinstatment if he completes it successfully. <br />Hours of volunteer service show a commitment to the club.<br />How many had he had to drink? He could have lost count of what he was doing.<br />MS? This link may offer some explanation.<br /> Mind and Emotion with MS <br /><br />Intent is hard to determine from the outside.<br />This is from an MS website.<br />

The first signs of cognitive dysfunction may be subtle. The person may have difficulty in finding the right words to say, or trouble remembering what to do on the job or during daily routines at home. Decisions that once were easy now demonstrate poor judgment. Often, the family becomes aware of the problem first, noticing changes in behavior or personal habits.<br /><br />

I would lean towards cutting this guy some slack and maybe show some compassion. I doubt he would throw away all his volunteer effort over a minor bar tab.<br /><br />If this member was a close friend of mine I would offer to "sponser" him during his probation. Maybe offering to pay any loss to the club during the time of his probation.

 

[Terry H]

Re: How to define justice. A moral question

Show some class...let it go. If the guy is a crook it'll come to the surface soon enough. Forgive and FORGET. Even if he did do it on purpose, he won' be doing anything stupid again.<br />If you threw your kids out of your family first time they broke the rules, you would be without them, and what's more important...just a thought

 

[f_inscreenname]

Re: How to define justice. A moral question

I don't know. Member of a club (doesn't sound like he is hard up for money or is he and hasn't told anyone?), many hours of volunteer work, well aware of a camera, is 53 and has MS. If you all are getting bent out of shape about this you have to much time on your hands. There is a bunch of stuff to think about here. Remember this is a club member (in good standing till now) and friend. First knowing there was surveillance (did it look like he was being sneaky) why would he do it? Is he hard up for money for some reason? A friend would find out. Then there is this. Have you ever walked out a store and thought “that was cheap” only to find out they didn't charge you for something? Did you rush back into the store to pay them or think after the millions I have spent in that store they owe it to me? Dose he think to club owes him (good or bad reason).<br />And for those who have little, little kids you ever find a candy bar in your shopping bag after you get home from the store. You don't disown them do you or “throw them out of the club”. No, you fix it and move on. <br />As for some wanting to call the cops, boy they would have never made it in the bar business. Mom owned a bar for many years before she died. If she would have locked up everyone that tried to snag a beer she would have to close for lack of business. These are the same people that would do anything you asked in a heartbeat. You just chalked it up to the cost of being in the alcohol business. You all have some serious folks in your “hangout” club.

 

[Link]

Re: How to define justice. A moral question

Hey Pointer<br />Sounds like a lot of club members with too much time on their hands or as stated a ax to grind.The embarrassment of just being on video (and maybe being thought of) as a thief is punishment enough. <br />Its not like he stole your worms. Without them you cant fish and that would be a REAL crime. For that I'd say Hang him high and do it fast!

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: How to define justice. A moral question

Since it's a club, you guys are somewhat of a brotherhood. Treat him as one.<br /><br />With the picture you paint, let the chips fall where they may.<br />Weather a mistake or intentional, the responsibility is his.<br /><br />The damage done in future distrust and hard feelings may cause him to resign.<br />Then again any past or future good deeds and the way he handles this situation may earn him respect again.<br /><br />Have him pay the money back and let nature take it's course.

 

[snapperbait]

Re: How to define justice. A moral question

$10... Let it be...

 

[roscoe]

Re: How to define justice. A moral question

Print these posts out and take them to the meeting. They may open a few eyes. ( and hearts)

 

[12Footer]

Re: How to define justice. A moral question

Rules are rules, theft is theft. But yea, I'd want to see the tape too, before I axed this guy's membership.

 

[Carphunter]

Re: How to define justice. A moral question

Stealing is stealing, no matter who it is, and how you may try to sugar-coat it.<br /><br />Trust is the conerstone of most relationships, whether it be a marriage, or a friendship, ect. Trust is very hard to earn, but very easy to lose. This fella has broken that trust. I don't believe for a minute that this was an oversight on his part.<br />Some sort of disciplinary action should be taken against this fella, and in time, he should be given a chance to earn that trust back.<br /><br />My 2 cents worth, but usually worth a lot less.