How much should I offer?

[JoshT]

As I've mentioned in a few other threads on these forums I'm looking at a 1989 Blue Fin Spectrum 1700. Pictures and what info I have on the boat can be found in this topic in the Blue Fin Boats forum. It is equipped with a 50 hp Force without wilt and trim, but the motor apparently does not work at the moment. Something about needing a $200 CDI part, not wanting to discuss that here I made a thread in the appropriate engine forum for that. Based on this it has been suggested in that thread I make an offer as if it were just the hull and trailer with no motor. The owner is "asking $2400 but due to bad CDI will take $1900." To me that can be interpreted as I want $1900, but I want you to think it's worth $2400 and I'm doing you a favor. NADA value guides places average retail at $1310 and low retail at $1150.

If the motor were to just need a cheap simple fix (and this could be proven) what would you offer?

If you were buying it as a hull and trailer knowing that a wasted hunk of motor was hanging on back, what would you offer?

 

[metriccrescentwrench]

Re: How much should I offer?

First off NADA prices for used boats are meaningless. Every time I've compared NADA prices to a reasonable selling price NADA has been pretty low. Someone else on here said that NADA was too high for a boat he bought, but I believe that was a newer model.

I'm leery of Force outboards. Plus, the guy doesn't know what he's talking about when he says "it needs a CDI". CDI makes every ignition part imaginable, so it could be anything. Someone probably made a wild a$# guess as to why the engine won't run and he's putting that out there as gospel. It would be interesting to ask the guy selling it that if it's such an easy fix why he hasn't done it yet. Take a compression gauge with you and get compression readings. If those are good at least you have an indication that the engine should be fixable. Drain a small amount of oil from the lower unit and make sure there's no water in it.

Crawl all over that boat checking for soft spots in the deck. Any soft spots make it a no-go unless you want a project. Push and pull HARD on the lower unit while watching the transom for any signs of flex (there should be absolutely zero flex when you do this).

ALSO, a 50 horse on a 17 foot boat is going to be darned anemic. I have a 90 horse on a 14-1/2 ft fish-n-ski (my "other" boat which I haven't gotten around to selling) and that performs ok (about 43 mph top speed with a good hole shot), and my Checkmate is 18-1/2 ft with a 200 on it and of course I like it's performance much better (about 63 mph so far). So basically, even if you could get that engine running you might want to think about replacing it with something closer to what the boat's rated for. I'll go out on a limb and guess that boat would do ok with a 115 or maybe even a 150 if it's rated for it.

Off the top of my head I'd guess somewhere around $1500 tops if everything checks out and the boat's truly as nice as those photos indicate (that's figuring that the engine isn't worth very much).

 

[Bob_VT]

Re: How much should I offer?

Force 50 hp have little or no value at all. The REAL problem is you are being told what part to replace and the CDI box is only a small portion of the equation. That CDI box might fix it or it might be the tip of the iceberg. The motor might be a can of worms!!!! Has there been a real estimation by a mechanic or a guesstimate by someone. You buy it, he/she PCS's and it turns out the motor needs more in repairs then it is worth Risky

That boat is only rated for a 50 hp max so it will never be a speed demon ...............

If the boat was in pristine condition and the trailer was also perfect then I would say is NADA high retail at most. It is a 1989 which is over 20 years old.

I saw the other post and that appears to be in great shape and based on where it is being sold....... I know it has been well cleaned and maintained. I used to be a GI till I retired and recognize the permit

 

[roscoe]

Re: How much should I offer?

Well, welcome to iboats.

That boat looks to be in decent shape. I looked at the photos in your other thread.
I have seen many of them, and worked on a few, owned a '95 model, which was much better made, heavier, and rated for more hp..

They are kind of an aluminum bayliner.
On the cheaper end, usually didn't hold up too well.
Upholstery cracked and faded, floor got soft.

But this one really looks nice, like it sat in a garage for 20 years.

I was not impressed with the way the boat handled in the water, but I am picky.

I think the boat was only rated for 50 hp in 1989, which really is not enough.

Consider that motor to be a throw away.
You may get her running for 200-500, or it could be a whole lot more.

$1400 is tops.
Then you need to go find a motor, or start down the road of repairs, on a motor that has no value.

If you are not a mechanic, I would just look for another motor.
If you are a mechanic, I would still look for another motor.

 

[JoLin]

Re: How much should I offer?

Based on this it has been suggested in that thread I make an offer as if it were just the hull and trailer with no motor. The owner is "asking $2400 but due to bad CDI will take $1900." To me that can be interpreted as I want $1900, but I want you to think it's worth $2400 and I'm doing you a favor. NADA value guides places average retail at $1310 and low retail at $1150.

Low quality boat with an obsolete and broken motor? I'd walk. I've been down this road before, and you'll never make a decent deal. Problem is that the owner thinks this combo is actually worth some real money, when it isn't. What he'll 'take' is, IMO, about double what the package is actually worth.

My .02

 

[lncoop]

Re: How much should I offer?

Low quality boat with an obsolete and broken motor? I'd walk. I've been down this road before, and you'll never make a decent deal. Problem is that the owner thinks this combo is actually worth some real money, when it isn't. What he'll 'take' is, IMO, about double what the package is actually worth.

My .02

+1,000,000. Keep looking.

 

[metriccrescentwrench]

Re: How much should I offer?

That boat is only rated for a 50 hp max so it will never be a speed demon ...............

I didn't realize that. WOW . OK, I retract what I mentioned about going to a larger engine, but stand by my estimation that it's going to be a dog. I doubt if that package would pull a skier with more than a couple of people in the boat.

 

[jkust]

Re: How much should I offer?

It's always a 'simple fix' when the seller says the engine doesn't run. If you are asking how much...my answer is nothing and walk away. Do you want to be out on a boat or fixing one?

 

[JoshT]

Re: How much should I offer?

I appreaciate everybody's input.

metriccrescentwrench: I figured that was the case for NADA, but never delt with it on anything other than vehicles. I'd probably try to get the guy to meet me somewhere so I can have my dad look it over with me. He's been around this type of stuff a lot longer than I have. Will take a compression tester along when I check it out more. That's also my thoughts on the CDI issue. Could be anything, but If I could narrow it down to an ignition issue it'd probably be worth the time to fix it. I realize that the engine would be small for the boat even if I did get it running, and larger motor was already in the plans. If I could get this motor running then I would use it for a year ot two until I was able to find a good deal on good used 75+ horse with power tilt and trim. Soft spots and weak transom would be my number one deal killer. Not going to start climbing all over it until I actually talk to the guy.

Bob_VT: That's what I want to know, was there an actual estimation or was it a guess. If it was an actual estimation why didn't he fix it? Actually this one is rated at 85 horse, I could see that much of the plate.

Roscoe: the garage thing was what came to mind when I got a better look at the interior. My thinking is that if it was garage kept most of its life there's a good chance the deck and transom will be in good shape. As mentioned above this one is rated for 85 and I'd like to find atleast a 75 horse for it. FWIW I am a mechanic by trade. Work on aircraft for a living, and work on vehicles as a hobby. Pretty much if I can figure out what's wrong I can fix it. This would be my first go round with a boat or two stroke motor though. As I mentioned above ideal would be I can fix this motor for sub $200, and watch for a larger one for a decent price. Hell if I could find a like new 50 horse for a decent price I could probably even swap it for the 75 horse on dad's boat. When I showed him the cellphone pic of this one he mentioned wanting to get a boat like this and swaping motors. Unfortunatly he's not interested in a busted motor without power tilt and trim.

 

[metriccrescentwrench]

Re: How much should I offer?

FWIW I am a mechanic by trade. Work on aircraft for a living, and work on vehicles as a hobby.

Well, in that case you should be able to figure the thing out. Be sure to get a factory service manual though (you probably already knew that). I tried one of the off-brand generic manuals and wasn't very happy with it, see if you can find a real one on ebay (I really am not familiar with what's available for Force outboards, I've only messed with OMC and Mercs).


What kind of planes do you work on? A buddy of mine is an A&P, used to work for Delta but left there and went to FedEx. I used to fly with him all the time but between him moving away and the flying club I was in folding I haven't flown in several years now.

Actually this one is rated at 85 horse, I could see that much of the plate.

If you can find an engine that's closer to 85 horsepower you'll be much happier. Power trim is a big deal too (trim down for better hole-shot then trim up as you get up to speed).

 

[JoshT]

Re: How much should I offer?

Well, in that case you should be able to figure the thing out. Be sure to get a factory service manual though (you probably already knew that). I tried one of the off-brand generic manuals and wasn't very happy with it, see if you can find a real one on ebay (I really am not familiar with what's available for Force outboards, I've only messed with OMC and Mercs).

I think so, kind more worried about what I might figure out than being able to figure it out. If I can't dad's been working on everything from small engines to large tractors (backhoes/bulldozers/etc.) for over 30 years, made a living at it for quite a while too. I wouldn't even have a problem replacing the deck in one (aluminum hull at least), but I want to get a few years use out of it first. As for them manual, if I buy the boat that'll be the next thing I buy.

What kind of planes do you work on? A buddy of mine is an A&P, used to work for Delta but left there and went to FedEx. I used to fly with him all the time but between him moving away and the flying club I was in folding I haven't flown in several years now.

The F-15. I'm Civil Cervice employee with the Air Force at the local base. I went to school for the A&P, then got the job out here through a Co-Op program. I finished the program, but never got the A&P. I've thought a few times about going back and taking the tests so I could do some general aviation work, but then think about the liability involved. I know my work and I know I do it right, but lets just say I don't trust NTSB accident investigators from personal experience. Might still do it for something to fall back on, but I'm currently working on my second associates degree. Planning to move into the information technology career field, which has been another hobby of mine for years. Not sure which area of the field I want to focus on though, haven't really found any of it I dislike other than help desk work.

 

[greenbush future]

Re: How much should I offer?

As I've mentioned in a few other threads on these forums I'm looking at a 1989 Blue Fin Spectrum 1700. Pictures and what info I have on the boat can be found in this topic in the Blue Fin Boats forum. It is equipped with a 50 hp Force without wilt and trim, but the motor apparently does not work at the moment. Something about needing a $200 CDI part, not wanting to discuss that here I made a thread in the appropriate engine forum for that. Based on this it has been suggested in that thread I make an offer as if it were just the hull and trailer with no motor. The owner is "asking $2400 but due to bad CDI will take $1900." To me that can be interpreted as I want $1900, but I want you to think it's worth $2400 and I'm doing you a favor. NADA value guides places average retail at $1310 and low retail at $1150.

If the motor were to just need a cheap simple fix (and this could be proven) what would you offer?

If you were buying it as a hull and trailer knowing that a wasted hunk of motor was hanging on back, what would you offer?

Didnt read the part where it didn't have trim/tilt-but that's strike 4 IMO. Here is the rest of what I responded back on in your other post.

OK I will give my .02 on this one. Spectrums are entry level boats regarding quality or workmanship, and cost, so as a first boat this may be perfect for you to learn on. I own a 1996 Spectrum and it has a similar look but I have the merc 90 HP not a Force 50 which is at the lowest end of power, and quality and IMO way underpowered for that size of run about boat. It is also one of the less desirable brand of engines, and Force is no longer in business, but parts are still around, sounds like if you did buy, you will need at least this CDI which I don't have a clue about. Based on what you have shared, this boat is broken, and doesn't run, so sea testing that thing isn't gonna happen, that's strike one. The fact that it's a Force IMO is strike two, and the fact that a dealer is selling this boat, tells me that they don't want to fix it, which would allow them to get top $$ for it, why is that? IMO that's strike three, and because there are a million boats around, why would anyone buy a broken boat? They are asking top dollar for a poor power plant. And to me that boat is worth only what the motor is valued at. the hull has 0 value. Trailer may be worth $500.
Unless you want to buy a project, meaning you want to tear that motor apart, replace the CDI and perhaps more, I would move on and spend your cash where you can get a perfectly good running boat, motor, and trailer. This boat is not turn key, but maybe you want to work on your boat all summer or pay a boat mechanic to do this for you. Depends what you are interested in. but don't buy the first one you see, Maybe make it a point to look at a minimum of 3-4 used boats that fit your needs, so you have a choice, because you do!!

 

[JoshT]

Re: How much should I offer?

The fact that it's a Force IMO is strike two, and the fact that a dealer is selling this boat, tells me that they don't want to fix it, which would allow them to get top $$ for it, why is that? IMO that's strike three, and because there are a million boats around, why would anyone buy a broken boat? They are asking top dollar for a poor power plant. And to me that boat is worth only what the motor is valued at. the hull has 0 value. Trailer may be worth $500.

Thanks for the reply. I should have made it clearer that this is for sale by owner. It is on the for sale lot here on the local Air Force Base. The tag in the window is the permit stating he has permission to park the vehicle there. That's also the reason if I go any further with this I want the guy to meet me off base with it. As mentioned I would want my father to look any boat over before I even started talking price, and I can't get him on base. Not that he's not allowed, he retired medically from here a few years ago, after that he's refused to set foot back on base for any reason.

 

[rivermouse]

Re: How much should I offer?

Yo. engines that don't run are worth nothing. Buying one based on something someone says without hearing it run is like buying "a pig in a poke"

 

[roscoe]

Re: How much should I offer?

cd module (aftermarket from CDI) $289
coils $79 times 2 -- $158
trigger assembly $228
stator $240
impeller $20

Carb kit $ good luck
fuel pump kit $25


voltage regulator $30
starter $124


That would be a $1124 pig in a poke.

Better to spend that money on a different motor.

 

[catfishcarl99]

Re: How much should I offer?

im not telling you to buy it. but look at my signature. i have the EXACT same boat. 1989 1700 fish and ski spectrum 1700. the force 507y9b is not obsolete 100%. i put a cd box on mine just this spring. fried it like an idiot doing some wiring. i got a tested used one on ebay for $82. and these always some on there. also a coil plug wire shocked me. i replaced it used also from ebay $25. worked fine. mine right now runs like a top. no dying issues or nothing. and this boat will hold an 85 and even a kicker. ill show you.
http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=451852&page=2&highlight=spectrum+1700

member tim wagner posted this in 2010.
mine says right on plate 85hp max. and i got a clutch dog 3 years ago new from tnt marine in il for $78 quicksilver and gears for lower unit were $180 and still available. and just got water/exaust cover gaskets. quicksilver makes alot of parts for this motor. and still available. sure the carb is obsolete and a few things. but most all parts new and used available. for example i replaced the thermoswitch 2 weeks ago. a $45 part. ebay new quicksilver. $13.50. and jerryjerry sent me a used buzzer overheat for shipping cost. another $40 part. there out there. like i said i aint saying buy it. but dont let the high quote of new parts scare you from it. ebay has dozens of parts for this motor. i got a 12 1/2 pitch 10 3/8 diam prop new for $40 there this spring. $140 new.

as far as checking stern transom. look for cracks. not rot. there is not 1 piece of wood in the structure of this boat. all bulkheads stringers are alum. i know i restored mine this spring. only wood is ply floor. guarenteed.

my restore project.
http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=552883&highlight=catillac+restore

anymore Q's on specifics ide be glad to help since its in the drive.

theres underneath mine. and 20 gal under floor alum tank.

heres the part proof. these are parts me (same user name) got on ebay this spring to fix issues ive had.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/250870904730 thermoswitch $45 retail paid $13.50
http://www.ebay.com/itm/330605823290 gasket
http://www.ebay.com/itm/330605805668 gasket
http://www.ebay.com/itm/190614632622 coil $80 retial paid $25
http://www.ebay.com/itm/190614632622 spare carb $60 reatil $131 obsolete
http://www.ebay.com/itm/230778922813 prop nut $6
http://www.ebay.com/itm/200749710167 cdi box$82 retail $400
http://www.ebay.com/itm/180859801313 prop paid seller $25 bid $15 shipping. retail $140

escort trailer. see alot of rust? its galvinized. mine looks identical. only rust on mine is chains and coupler. trailer is same as 1989. no rust. big + i put leds on it and buddie bearings cam on it when i got it in 2004. never done squat to trailer in 8 years but replace side bunks.

leaks very little to this day. with the 50hp your lil under powered. 30 mph is about all your gonna get if you get the motor running. theres 4 props i know of. michigan props 10 3/8 14 spline pin drive non exaust. in 10 pitch/ 11 1/2 12 1/2 13 1/2. i am running a 13.5 now. its getting 25 mph. to big of a bite. i had it running 30 before but lost the prop during the clutch problem i had.

price seems high. i paid $2000 in 04 but no top for mine. but it ran great. crusing in mine last month heading out to fish

the boat its self ive had 0 complaints. the motor. im no mechanic though im very DIY inclined and just figure stuff out but ive had no issues fixing this one. all this stuff i fixed this spring was over due. and i did it 50% of retail by using ebay and my tight wad buying ethics.

i saved $566 over retail buy using ebay on the above parts.

 

[catfishcarl99]

Re: How much should I offer?

and i toatlly disagree with greenbusch. how do you value hull at $0. lmao. my hull has given me 0 troubles. and scrap on the hull alone would be a few hundred at least all alum. lol. i value my hull enough to still 24 years later to take my 5 year old fishing on mine.

i assume boats are much like glocks. if they dont own it they HATE it. lol. i actually own this boat and didnt work on a couple or see one go down the road. the boat is fine. unless aluminum rots in your area transom is a non issue. worry about motor internals and floor. everything else looks fine. trailler is non issue. unless wheels are falling off.
look at my trailer. looks the same. because there galvanized.

like i said. its up to you. b ut alot of info here as an owner of one i disagree with. ide tell you to stick a chevy in the lake too. but im a ford man

and i really want power trim. theres a couple units on ebay for $300ish. but i aint ready to spend that.

i feel confident that with the new interior mine will be taking me fishing for another 20 years.

 

[greenbush future]

Re: How much should I offer?

I didn't mean to insult the Spectrum boat owners or the fact that they can and are a decent boat, remember I own the 19 foot version of your boat, it just doesn't have the Force power plant which is at least 90% if not 100% of the value of any boat, not just Spectrums. And that parts list shows just how much can and eventually will go bad with Force motors, which can run just fine, but my experience tells me they are lowest end motor you can own, and they are prone to break, and they can be tough to service. I have not replaced that much stuff on all my boats, over the last 25 years!!! and I've owned maybe 10 of them. From big block I/0's to little 40 Hp Mercs on glorified row boats. It's a buyers market, and there is no way I would buy a broken boat, with no sea trial. If you are looking for a project, then by all means, roll the dice, that's exactly what you are doing, plain and simple. Have fun no matter what.

 

[jkust]

Re: How much should I offer?

. And that parts list shows just how much can and eventually will go bad with Force motors, which can run just fine, but my experience tells me they are lowest end motor you can own, and they are prone to break, .

Ok one does not make a rule but my 1984 Force is 100% original with only spark plugs having ever been replaced. Runs as nice as it did the day we picked it up after ordering it at the 1984 boat show. I don't condone them because of the unfortunate luck most others have had but just know that there are some good ones out there.

 

[greenbush future]

Re: How much should I offer?

Ok one does not make a rule but my 1984 Force is 100% original with only spark plugs having ever been replaced. Runs as nice as it did the day we picked it up after ordering it at the 1984 boat show. I don't condone them because of the unfortunate luck most others have had but just know that there are some good ones out there.

Very good point, if well taken care of, you are proof that they can run fine and some actually are good running power plants. This one's broke, and that's not good. It's under powered too, which tells me there are better deals to be had, if you picked this one up for the price of the trailer, then maybe it's worth it to try to fix the motor. Buyer might just love a project, but you can do much better for that price point IMO. And resale is usually a considerstion too.