How about you trying to understand the un-civilised

[20/20]

Re: How about you trying to understand the un-civilised

Originally posted by Nate Not in Arkansas:<br />Read Ladyfish's post there 20/20. Animals. I stand by my statement. The sooner rid the world of these vermin, the better off it will be.

I think your the one who should read LF's post. You are condemning a group of people because of a few bad{rotten} apples. Maybe back in the 20-30s we should have killed every red neck{whitey} here in the US after all they were hanging the blacks. How about all the good ole boys that beat their wifes on a regular basis because dinner wasn't what they wanted. Your taking a very complicated problem and trying to solve it with caveman idea. What these few men did is very WRONG and should not go without punishment{death}. I don't think we should go back in time and dig out the old getta rope and burn'em at the stake brain dead thinking.

 

[QC]

Re: How about you trying to understand the un-civilised

Skinny and PW2,<br /><br />PW2s post sounded a lot like I was supposed to try and get in these Monsters heads. Not gonna do it. These honor killings are from the same kinda mentality that results in suicide bombers etc. What we DO is what we are doing in Iraq (I don't mean invade Jordan). I believe the real reason we are there is to establish a Democracy in the region and hope that at least some of our values rub off on them. It is obvious to me that we have to make some major attempts to stem the tide, tilt the scale etc. Sitting and watching and learning and teaching is not working.<br /><br />I preach to my children that evil should always be exposed and that it should always be punished. Period. Tolerance is something I also teach them, tolerance for the way people speak, eat, dress etc. NOT for evil.<br /><br />

From Ladyfish: How can we expect to change this, when in fact there continues to be violence against women in EVERY culture, sadly enough, even our own.

We change it by active means not passive. We keep working on it. We resist The United Nations when they assign a Libyan as the President of thier Human Rights Commission. We absolutely do

from PW2" impose our values on the rest of the world

. I have no problem standing up and saying that my values and understanding of Human Rights and Women's Rights and Children's Rights is superior to some others. If not, I am a co-conspirator.

 

[Limited-Time]

Re: How about you trying to understand the un-civilised

We're talking about a man killing, let me repeat that KILLING his teenage daughter because she disgraced HIS honor. Any culture in modern times that deems this act acceptable is barberric. We are not debating Human Rights here. We are talking about a premeditated murder. How does that fall into a cultural issue. Rant: Let’s see boy gets teenage girl pregnant...no problem we just kill the girl for disgracing the family, remove object of disgrace and unplanned child in one step. Sorry for the rant.

 

[Limited-Time]

Re: How about you trying to understand the un-civilised

Dbl post

 

[QC]

Re: How about you trying to understand the un-civilised

LT,<br /><br />Good rant. My point exactly. We cannot, should not and I won't try and understand this thinking. It must be condemned. Period.

 

[Limited-Time]

Re: How about you trying to understand the un-civilised

Quietcat<br /><br />Exactly..Peroid

 

[JB]

Re: How about you trying to understand the un-civilised

There is a saying that there is no more annoying teetotaler than a reformed drunk.<br /><br />The USA is a (partially) reformed drunk.<br /><br />Little over a hundred years ago killing a black person, beating a wife or child or even gunning down someone who offended your honour was illegal but forgiven in this country. 50 years before that it wasn't even illegal to kill a black. After all they were private property, livestock, and it was nobody's business if you decided to kill him/her.<br /><br />The status of crimes against Native Americans was (and is) little better.<br /><br />Tribal values in parts of the Middle East define women and children as private property.<br /><br />Jordan and Pakistan are working on it. So are Saudi Arabia and the other ME Nations. Do not condemn them. We were there just a few generations ago.

 

[rogerwa]

Re: How about you trying to understand the un-civilised

Frankly I think everybodys right in this post.<br /><br />Although the men are raised with these beliefs, just like you and I think it is wrong, at some point you would think he would step back and say, 'hey this just isn't right'.<br /><br />The issue goes back to the role of men and women and sexuality in the Muslim religion and arab culture. I'm no expert but I beleive that the reason women cover themselves from head to toe is that the belief is that men cannot control themsleves and that women are at fault for that.<br /><br />the paradox is that the men are the ones who are the perpetrators in the acts that supposedly disgrace the family, yet it is the females fault.<br /><br />For instance, if a daughter is raped by a relative, it is the daughter that is ultimatley punished. Because they culturally or religiously beleive it is her fault.<br /><br />For men who act so manly and strong and proud, their culture really shows them to be weak. Ironic.

 

[Vlad D Impeller]

Re: How about you trying to understand the un-civilised

Originally posted by Limited-Time:<br /> We're talking about a man killing, let me repeat that KILLING his teenage daughter because she disgraced HIS honor. Any culture in modern times that deems this act acceptable is barberric. We are not debating Human Rights here. We are talking about a premeditated murder. How does that fall into a cultural issue. Rant: Let’s see boy gets teenage girl pregnant...no problem we just kill the girl for disgracing the family, remove object of disgrace and unplanned child in one step. Sorry for the rant.

These sort of barbaric actions would not take place if countries would administer punishment to fit the crimes.<br /><br />This jordanian man it seems will face a prison sentence of six months for killing his daughter,<br /><br />thats how serious Jordanian law view the value of that little girls life.<br /><br />This is a country that recieves millions of American tax dollars in the form of foreign aid, <br /><br />so i think that it gives us the right to at least demand that they adhere to certain principles in the value of innocent human lives, <br /><br />therefore, in the big picture my view is this is a Human rights issue.

 

[Limited-Time]

Re: How about you trying to understand the un-civilised

JB<br /> Agreed....Looking back its easy to say those atrocities were wrong....My frustration is in that its not a hundred years ago its 2005. It seems those countries (Middle Eastern) seem to live in the past where it suites (lack of human rights) them and in the present where it benefits (prosperity and affluence due to crude oil) them.

 

[LadyFish]

Re: How about you trying to understand the un-civilised

Rogerwa I could not have stated it better myself.<br /><br />This is why I will never understand why some liberals who appear to be so compassionate of others argue that WE the U.S. should not police the world. It dosen't make sense to me.<br /><br />If we don't want the world ruled by these inhumane philosophies we have a responsibility to make sure it isn't. Educating other societies and demanding governments implement severe punishment for these despicable crimes is a good start.

 

[rogerwa]

Re: How about you trying to understand the un-civilised

LF it is the moral relativism that you don't understand. I don't understand it either.<br /><br />If I see something is wrong, to me its pretty black and white. It can't be wrong for me but OK for them based on the context.<br /><br />While I dont' like the term policing the world, I relate it to raisng kids. If I set the rules down to my kids, I don't expect to get rave reviews from them on what great rules they are, I expect to get complaints, mis-behavior, breaking the rules, punishments, heck even resetnment for holding them to the rules. But I do it, not to be popular, but for their own good. Who knows maybe someday they wiull come back and say thanks, although I don't expect it. That is the role we need to play. <br /><br />The kids will bring up my past, but you know what?? I learned from it. and so should they.

 

[limeyboater]

Re: How about you trying to understand the un-civilised

Honour killings, dont have to go far to find these, they are regular occurance in the UK among the asian /muslim community. wives killed daughters killed they are normally multiple stabbings followed by a fire even a christian boy who was courting a muslim girl was beaten to death in Glasgow of course the liberals will always deny it happens and blame others but Im afraid its time the liberals stood up for our western values or went to live in their beloved needy tolerant countries.<br /><br />www.werenotafraid.com

 

[beezee28]

Re: How about you trying to understand the un-civilised

I agree with you JB. What you said is true about culture. Culture and religion are 2 separated things and yes, they are connected indirectly. <br />You could be a christian in Jordan (they have christian there)or a muslim in Jordan (they have many there!) but they way you live and interact with each other is handed down from one generation to another. Now here is the grey area when religion mixed with the way you live. Do you live the way you think that it is morally correct or religiously correct?? How can you tell the different when a race has lived for so many generation (probably since the begining of time!) <br /><br />You can argue until you are blue and purple in the face and they would still say that it is the right way on how method of how they live in Jordan and how they do things. <br /><br />To our western eye, we see it as wrong (morally and ethically), but to their eyes thay say that it is correct and have done it that way for generations. We cannot change a society or a race to think the way that we think in the Western world. <br /><br />This killing is but one example of atrocities that have been inflicted on human (whether male or female) in the Middle Eastern area, Indian Continent, and Asia. <br /><br />Next one to the lectern... My $0.02.

 

[wilkin250r]

Re: How about you trying to understand the un-civilised

Where does the line get drawn? I don't like the idea of honor killings, but at the same time, I'm not too keen on rushing in to another country to change their way of life because I don't agree with their morals and culture.<br /><br />What level of involvement should we take? Is it honor killings, or should we also be promoting women's equality and right to vote, equal pay? What if they incorporate their religion into their politics (no separation of church and state), should we attempt to change that, too? The root cause seems to be their religion, maybe we go in to convert them all.<br /><br />I'm being a little over-dramatic here, but it's to make a point. Should we change everything we don't like, or should we limit our involvment only to honor killings? CAN we limit our involvement to honor killings?

 

[JB]

Re: How about you trying to understand the un-civilised

To change their way of life, as you put it, you have to change what they believe.<br /><br />That has taken almost 150 years in this country and still isn't done.

 

[achris]

Re: How about you trying to understand the un-civilised

I think somewhere along the line the main point of religious doctrine has been missed. The bible, every bible, states quite clearly "Thou shalt not kill". It doesn't specify who shouldn't be killed, it's a blanket statement. Barbarians who commit these terrible acts need to be punished by the same bible - "An eye for an eye". Most civil laws around the world are based on the 10 commandments, punishments should also be based on biblical teaching. And to the upright, do-goers, liberal lefties who say that we haven't the right to take another life - the bible thinks these people have no right to life and I happen to agree with it. As much as the western world is depised in the East (mainly jealousy). I believe we have an obligation to protect ALL life in this planet. And the sooner political and religous boundaries are removed the better. I have just read an excellent article in 'New Scientist" about a Palestinian scientist and an Isreali scientist who are working together on a project to help all people of the region. Interesting how they view each other as people, not their politics. We can all learn by it. But first we must rid the planet of the religious zealots who proliforate the hatred that is causing all the problems. Yes, the western world was there not that long ago, but shouldn't other cultures be able benefit from the mistakes of their predecessors, as opposed to repeating them?<br /><br />Chris...........

 

[QC]

Re: How about you trying to understand the un-civilised

Originally posted by achris:<br /> The bible, every bible, states quite clearly "Thou shalt not kill".

I believe the literal translation is "Thou Shall Not Murder". Which defines an important difference . . . Like it's OK to kill Hitler, but not innocents.

 

[achris]

Re: How about you trying to understand the un-civilised

Murder : The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.<br /><br />As far as I see it, these 'honour killings' fall inside the definition. As would killing Hitler.

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: How about you trying to understand the un-civilised

Governments are really visible manifestations of their culture. There has never really been a long-lasting government that has been out of step with its mother culture. We know that a family's culture is deep and very difficult to influence. It takes either a lot of time or a total radical amputation to truly change the culture. Since nation-states are in fact artificial constructs anyway, it is almost impossible to make drastic changes without Draconian measures.<br /><br />Curing the world’s ills will require we administer “our medicine” till the end of time.<br /><br />

This is why I will never understand why some liberals who appear to be so compassionate of others argue that WE the U.S. should not police the world.

That great liberal(?) John Quincy Adams said it better himself, "America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well- wisher to freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own."