Horn Problem on Daughter's car? PROBLEM SOLVED 10/2/05

Boomyal · Sep 15, 2005

Re: Horn Problem on Daughter's car? PROBLEM SOLVED 10/2/05

Thanks for the diagram Xcusme. Before I resorted to that I wanted to find the OEM relay. I went with my daughter to the Mitsubishi dealer, next to her work, to ask them to point it out to me. The inside of the underhood fuse box cover shows what appears to be a row of relays, one with a horn symbol on it. The confusion is that there were no relays or sockets in that row, only more fuse slots turned 90 degrees to the fuse slots that were pictured. The technician scratched his head and pulled the fuse out of the slot that would have been where the relay was pictured and it was burned out. I have not progressed beyond that point yet. Not even sure if that fuse has anything to do with the horn because there is a horn fuse that is identified in the row of fuses that is shown correctly on the underneath side of the fuse box cover. Whew! This weekend I'll get back to looking.

Dunaruna · Sep 15, 2005

Re: Horn Problem on Daughter's car? PROBLEM SOLVED 10/2/05

Any chance of a pic of the relay box?

Boomyal · Sep 15, 2005

Re: Horn Problem on Daughter's car? PROBLEM SOLVED 10/2/05

Originally posted by Dunaruna: Any chance of a pic of the relay box?

Yeah Aldo, but it probably won't get posted til tomorrow 'cause my daughter won't be home til later tonight. I'll bump the post once I post it.

Boomyal · Sep 16, 2005

Re: Horn Problem on Daughter's car? PROBLEM SOLVED 10/2/05

Aldo, here are pictures of the fuse box and the fuse box lid. Note the the lone red fuse on the bottom row is in the area that that the lid shows to be relays, but they are not relay sockets and the fuse is blown. Also the fuse sockets on either side do not have contacts in them. Note also that the red fuse, in the next row up, 3rd in from the right is shown as a horn fuse. In the narrow relay box below the main fuse box, the empty sockets in the middle appear not to have any contacts in them nor are they depicted in the fuse box lid. The little lid that covers the narrow relay box appears to not be from this car. The pictured fuse box lid we had to buy from the dealer because the one that came on it was from some other vehicle and did not fit the box. Every thing else on the car works and the 2 horns honk when I apply 12 v's to them. I have not yet tried to replace the blown fuse as I am trying to make sense of the conflicts in diagrams.

Dunaruna · Sep 17, 2005

Re: Horn Problem on Daughter's car? PROBLEM SOLVED 10/2/05

It would seem that someone has switched fuse/relay boxes. There also appears to be evidence of a meltdown at some point. On the lid, each item is numbered. The horn fuse is #7, does this coincide with any numbering on the fuse box? Assuming that the blow fuse is in fact for the horn - probe the blow fuse contacts (fuse removed) with a test light, with ignition on or off, one terminal should be live. Next, OHM test the terminal that is NOT live with the horn 12v contact. If you have no resistance, the relay has been bypassed and/or removed. Put a good 10amp fuse in and test the horn. If it blows again, we'll address that problem.

Boomyal · Sep 17, 2005

Re: Horn Problem on Daughter's car? PROBLEM SOLVED 10/2/05

Originally posted by Dunaruna: It would seem that someone has switched fuse/relay boxes. There also appears to be evidence of a meltdown at some point. On the lid, each item is numbered. The horn fuse is #7, does this coincide with any numbering on the fuse box? Assuming that the blow fuse is in fact for the horn - probe the blow fuse contacts (fuse removed) with a test light, with ignition on or off, one terminal should be live. Next, OHM test the terminal that is NOT live with the horn 12v contact. If you have no resistance, the relay has been bypassed and/or removed. Put a good 10amp fuse in and test the horn. If it blows again, we'll address that problem.

Will check the negative side of the blown fuse socket with the positive lead, disconnected from the horn. If I get continuity I will replace the fuse. The #7 fuse, in the lower row, coincides with both the depiction on the lid and the owners manual, for the horn. The positive side is hot with the key on. Maybe I should check the contiuity between the negative side of the #7 fuse socket and the positive side of the blown fuse??? As for the damage to the fuse box, it is consistant with the the area of collision. Seeing it up close there is no evidence of melting. It is just broken, but there does not appear to be any contacts in the broken fuse socket area. I find it not likely that they would have wired in a broken fuse box from another vehicle. Even the technician was unclear if this vehicle, with it's array of options ever had a horn relay.

Dunaruna · Sep 18, 2005

Re: Horn Problem on Daughter's car? PROBLEM SOLVED 10/2/05

Check me on this, The horn has a single wire connection, a '+'. The centre of the steering wheel has the activation switch - yeah? It must have a relay for the circuit to work. When you push the horn pad you are completing the ground circuit to the relay which in turn sends 12v '+' to the horn. Some vehicles have a horn with 2 connections, these circuits don't need a relay. Some vehicles have the horn switch on a stalk, these also don't need a relay (but usually have them anyway). Aldo

Boomyal · Sep 18, 2005

Re: Horn Problem on Daughter's car? PROBLEM SOLVED 10/2/05

Correct, each of the two horns has a single positive wire and are grounded to the chassis. And yes, the horn button, I would assume is in the center of the steering wheel. I've thought about getting a CD manual for the car off of ebay. Hoping it would have wiring diagrams. I have yet to chase down the blown fuse issue. I just got back in from the final day of boating. I finally got to take out a load of the kids for a few hours. The water was still temperate but 70 deg air temp made it a bit less than relaxing after you got wet.

Boomyal · Sep 19, 2005

Re: Horn Problem on Daughter's car? PROBLEM SOLVED 10/2/05

Aldo, somewhat interesting discovery. This is all with ignition key off. First I disconnected the power leads to the horns. Then I checked the leads to ground and there was no continuity. Next I pulled the first vertical fuse from the right side middle row, which is good w/ power to it (shown on lid and manual as the horn fuse) and checked the negative side of the socket to ground. No continuity. Plus there was no continuity with the disconnected horn lead. Then I pulled the blown, lone horizontal fuse on the bottom row, which has power to it, and checked the continuity between the negative side of the socket to ground then to the disconnected horn leads. No continuity either way. Next I moved to the empty horizontal socket directly below the blown fuse and checked for power. Affirmative. Then checked the negative side to ground. No continuity. Then I checked the continuity of the negative side of the empty socket to the disconnected horn leads and VOILA! Continuity. Now the way I see it, if I put a fuse in that empty slot it will just honk continously. So I don't think I am any closer to the solution. Eh?

Dunaruna · Sep 19, 2005

Re: Horn Problem on Daughter's car? PROBLEM SOLVED 10/2/05

Now I'm confused. Boom, fuse sockets don't have a 'negative' side. One socket is battery or ignition hot (+), the other socket feeds '+' to whatever the accessory is (in this case, the horns). Should not be a negative within a bulls roar of the fuse. I'm not sure what tests you performed, or what they mean??? With fuse sockets, you should be testing for continuity, using the OHM function on the multi-meter. Horns are designed to operate with the ignition off. One side of the horn fuse socket should be 'hot' with 12v '+'. The other side of the socket is still '+' (when a good fuse is installed). I appologise if my explaination is confusing, I can't think of any other way to describe the circuit. Aldo

Dunaruna · Sep 19, 2005

Re: Horn Problem on Daughter's car? PROBLEM SOLVED 10/2/05

Originally posted by Boomyal: ........Then I checked the continuity of the negative side of the empty socket to the disconnected horn leads and VOILA! Continuity. Now the way I see it, if I put a fuse in that empty slot it will just honk continously. So I don't think I am any closer to the solution. Eh?

You have just identified the correct horn circuit. A step in the right direction me thinks

. The other side of that fuse should be feed by a relay so that '12v +' is only present when the horn pad is pushed, but you say that it is already 'hot'? Time to backtrack. You now know what feeds the horn wire, you now need to find out what feeds that empty socket. To do this, put your test light in the 'hot' connection (the one that shows 12v), start pulling relays. When the light goes out, you've found a faulty relay. If the light does not go out, time to enlist the services of an auto electrician, it sounds as though it could be a nightmare to trace. I'll persist if you will. Aldo

Boomyal · Sep 19, 2005

Re: Horn Problem on Daughter's car? PROBLEM SOLVED 10/2/05

Originally posted by Dunaruna: .... I'll persist if you will.

Aldo, I appreciate your tenacity and good input. I will follow it thru until I begin to bump up against my Peter Principal level.

What I meant by the negative side of the fuse socket was the downhill side of the power flow. That's what I was checking for continuity to the end use terminal, or if that lead was grounded out. BTB, your link on the 12 v motor is promising. They actually show a radial assemble, w/ motor that is close to mine. They do not sell direct but at least it is another avenue to pursue.

Dunaruna · Sep 19, 2005

Re: Horn Problem on Daughter's car? PROBLEM SOLVED 10/2/05

This is a faxed and then scanned diagram from the genuine mitsubishi lancer 2003 manual. It is already 2 megabytes, I can't get it any clearer unless I scan it at about 10 megabytes, I've given my dialup a hernia! Your lancer has airbags, yeah?

From the bottom right, horn pad > clock spring > connector behind instrument cluster > RELAY (in engine compartment relay box), up to this point, the wire color is blue with red trace. From the relay > FUSE (same location as relay), the wire color from the relay to the fuse is white with yellow trace. The wire color from the relay to the horns is red with black trace. Can you follow it?

Boomyal · Sep 20, 2005

Re: Horn Problem on Daughter's car? PROBLEM SOLVED 10/2/05

Haven't had the opportunity to digest the schematic Aldo, but I did go out this morning as my daughter was getting ready to leave, to back trace the fuse. The schematic is hard to read but it looks like it is for the Evolution, where the cut off diagram below appears to have been for the non Evo Lancer. Here the plot thickens. Both the bottom, blown horizontal fuse and the empty socket beneath are controlled by the #7 vertical fuse in the row above. I suspect, even tho I did not have the time to confirm, that each one of the two horn power wires is controlled by one of the bottom two horizontal fuses. I put my test lite in the hot side of each one of the lower sockets then pulled the #7 fuse. Hot side of both bottom sockets goes dead. Hmmmmmmmm? Last nite, as I mentioned I did test the contiuity between one of the horn leads and the empty horizontal fuse socket and it was affirmative. Tonight I will check the continuity of the blown fuse socket with the power lead to the other horn. Based on this, there can be no relay between either of the fuse sets and the horn. It could only be before the #7 fuse and stuck on???

Dunaruna · Sep 20, 2005

Re: Horn Problem on Daughter's car? PROBLEM SOLVED 10/2/05

Hyperthetical - someone rewired and used a fuse/relay box from an earlier version lancer (non airbag lancers did not have a horn relay), they discovered that the horns would sound continuously, so they pulled the fuse. Hows that? I watch too much Monk. The pic is for the lancer, not evo. Besides, the pic above is identical. Aldo

Xcusme · Sep 21, 2005

Re: Horn Problem on Daughter's car? PROBLEM SOLVED 10/2/05

Just an attempt to possibly confuse you more, I'll try to explain the circuit. I have lettered the key points of the circuit A,B,C,D and E. 12VDC is supplied from the battery to a fuse (upper left on diagram). This 12VDC source feeds both sides of a SPST (Single Pole Single Throw) relay (horn relay) at points A and C. Points A and B are the relay contacts and can supply voltage to the horns when the relay coil is energized. Points C and D are the coil of the relay. When the horn button is pushed, it grounds the wire at point Dand E completing the circuit thru the relay coil, causing the relay contacts ( A and B) to close. When the relay closes, points A and B are shorted and allow voltage to be applied to the horns. Since the horns are mounted to the chassis, they are grounded, thus completing the circuit, and you get sound! One last thought, when checking for continunity at the fuse box, check for voltage first. Applying voltage to your meter when it's in an Ohms (resistance setting) can damage the meter. Using a bulb type test light is easier and safer. I'm not sure if you have identified the line at point D yet. Without the horn relay installed: You won't see any continunity at point D to ground until you hit the horn button. An easy way to check for connection D is to clip your 12VDC test light to the battery. Place the probe end into the suspected terminal at the fuse box. Push the horn button. If the test light lights, you've got point D. Do not test for point D using a direct 12VDC wire from the battery. When you press the horn button, you're placing a direct short to ground. This can cause melted wires, damage to the horn button (arcing) and other nasty stuff. To test for points A and C the main horn fuse must be installed (fuse at upper left of diagram). Place clip of test light on good body ground or negative side of battery. Probe suspected point A nd C. Test light should light. Remove main horn fuse. If test light goes out you have either A or C. Find to contacts that make the test light go out when you pull the main horn fuse and you've identified points A and C. To test for point B. Place test light clip to battery positive post. Probe fuse box terminals. When horns sound, you've got point B. Note: Horns may not sound at full volume due to current resistance of test bulb thru test light itself.

Boomyal · Sep 21, 2005

Re: Horn Problem on Daughter's car? PROBLEM SOLVED 10/2/05

Xcusme, I printed it off and will take it out to the car with me.

dolluper · Sep 21, 2005

Re: Horn Problem on Daughter's car? PROBLEM SOLVED 10/2/05

At the bottom right of your fuse box picture in 2 spaces to the left,that relay is supposed to be the horn relay,pull it out and jump the contacts'then go blow your horn

Boomyal · Sep 21, 2005

Re: Horn Problem on Daughter's car? PROBLEM SOLVED 10/2/05

Originally posted by dolluper: At the bottom right of your fuse box picture in 2 spaces to the left,that relay is supposed to be the horn relay,pull it out and jump the contacts'then go blow your horn

You mean on the VERY bottom dolluper? The relay that is by itself?

Xcusme · Sep 21, 2005

Re: Horn Problem on Daughter's car? PROBLEM SOLVED 10/2/05

Originally posted by dolluper: At the bottom right of your fuse box picture in 2 spaces to the left,that relay is supposed to be the horn relay,pull it out and jump the contacts'then go blow your horn

Interesting suggestion, but it has 2 flaws. Refering to my Lettered circuit pic above. If you "jump the contacts' (at A and B) you'll complete the circuit and 12VDC will be sent directly to the horns....constantly....so that's not the solution. If you 'jump the contacts' (at C and D) nothing will happen....UNTIL ...you hit the horn button. This will short the 12VDC supply voltage directly to ground. Since there's little resistance in the 'jumper wire', full current will flow and the main horn fuse will blow instantly. In other words, you'd place a dead short to ground of the supply voltage and the fuse is toast. Under normal circumstances when a horn relay is in and working, points C and D are the relay coil. This coil resistance is enough to slow the current flow (when the horn button is pushed), and the fuse doesn't pop.

Horn Problem on Daughter's car? PROBLEM SOLVED 10/2/05

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