Honda 225 Surging at Mid rpm's

[Fishin with buds]

So i picked up my used 2003 Honda 225 used about 160 hours ago. I have had no issues besides debris blocking the tell tale-but the engine would still cool. I just changed the oil and filter for the first time on my own at about 150 hours. HOnda marine 5w-30. The first trip out, about 3 miles out the jetty at about 3200 rpm's the boat set down from a small wave. The same time this happened, the engine rpm's dropped about 2-300rpm's. after going a few more minutes it happened again, then again, then every time i set down from a wave. Flooring the boat resulted in it boggng down severly. However, i could rev it in nuetral with no problem up to 6000 rpm's. I decided to go slow and the engine ran fine under about 3200 rpm's. but whenever i set down from a wave(maybe at the same time increasing the load on the engine) the engine would drop rpm's. I have not changed the fuel/water seperator in the time i have had the engine(150hours since time of problem) and have not changed the spark plugs and do not know when they were changed previously. The problem occured after i changed the oil.

any thoughts? could i have overfilled the oil and be triggering a sensor that would put the engione in a safe mode if the oil got too high? or do i need to change the fuel filters and water seperator? seems to me if it is intermittant, it would be an electrical issue, not fuel delivery. any help would be greatly appreciated as i am running low on cash and the YFT are BITING!!!

Thanks

 

[gss036]

Re: Honda 225 Surging at Mid rpm's

I would suggest that you check/(change if a cannister type) the water seperation filter, if you have one? The engine also has a fuel filter on the lower starboard side, it is a see thru type, check/clean it. It is near the oil filter. There is vapor seperator system, not much knowledge on it. I don't know if that could cause problems or not. Honda reccomends 10-30 oil, not 5-30, but you are ok with what you used. Did you change the oil filter?
IT sounds like your fuel water seperator might hve water in it, when you slosh around for the wake, the water fuel mixes, then when you boat settles down the fuel comes back to the top and runs ok.
You should NEVER run your rpms to 6000 out of gear, that is a good way to blow an engine, would you that to yuor car/truck?

 

[Fishin with buds]

Re: Honda 225 Surging at Mid rpm's

does anyone know if i can clean the fuel filters on the BF 225? or do they need to be replaced? What about the fuel/water seperator?

Thanks

 

[gss036]

Re: Honda 225 Surging at Mid rpm's

I would suggest that you change the filters. You don't/didn't say what type of filters you have, that information would be helpful. I don't think it is possible to clean fuel filters and if you don't know when they were last changed, maybe now is the time to do it.
I just purchased a new 225 and getting to know and understand the engine. I just did my 20 hr service.

 

[Fishin with buds]

Re: Honda 225 Surging at Mid rpm's

One more thing I forgot to mention was that the engine ideled really rough on one or two stops. sounded like there was some srt of valve train knocking. I am going to run the engine off an auxilary tank and skip the in line filter to see what happens. hopefully, honda is good and i am screwing up
Thanks

 

[gss036]

Re: Honda 225 Surging at Mid rpm's

Has the valves ever been adjusted? The local Honda shop owner says they like to do them at around 400 hours and it is expensive, takes about 4-5 hours labor.

 

[hondon]

Re: Honda 225 Surging at Mid rpm's

There are issues with this engine about water intrusion into the exhaust that you may want to see have been addressed.If you have this problem you will usually see repeated check engine codes but not always.If you are confident that the fuel system is intact and working properly,and before going in and adjusting those valves[though you are due]take a close look at the butterfly valve at the bottom of the intake mani.That is vaccume operated and should move very freely with one finger.Will throw no codes if not working and can stick intermittantly or at any certain point.Depending on it being stuck open or closed it may well give you those symptoms.

 

[cebu97]

Re: Honda 225 Surging at Mid rpm's

I have a 2004 BF200......and have had RPM issues too.....the difference your
BF225 is VTEC(me thinks).

Many good ideas here, but the bottom line is what is the ECU seeing and putting out in this situation.

Do not understand with a $20,000 engine setup that Honda doesn't have a much more informative engine monitoring system, even performance logs the
the owner could access easily.

If your REALLY hungry for those YFT......take that Honda to a Honda shop and get a computer diagnostics.........the first thing they check also is if all your recall items are done............They will also see a history of any engine problems, eg. overheating, etc.......and yes your engine probably falls in that engine exhaust problem and should be fixed.......corrosion kills these engines!

Send me some pics of those YFT!.......I is fish deprived here......

 

[tmartin]

Re: Honda 225 Surging at Mid rpm's

Sounds like a fuel issue to me. hands down.

The reason there isn't step by step info for that motor is simple. they don't break. By and large these motors are darn reliable.

You do yourself a dis-service by not replacing the filters. Not complicated either. Sounds like there is either water or debris in a filter somewhere that feeds the system.

This is a fuel issue. Not an electrical one.

Don't feak out. CHANGE THE FILTERS.

 

[Fishin with buds]

Re: Honda 225 Surging at Mid rpm's

Update- so i took it out this morning. before doing so i took apart the first and second inline filters under the cowling to clean them. The first seems to be a fuel/water seperator with a float and sensor for water intrusion. the wires for the alarm were rusted through and i thought this might have something to do with the issue, but more on that later. the seperator had a lot of debris in it! sand, junk, nothing i wanted to see! so i cleaned it really well and re-assembled. then i went to the next in line filter which was actually a filter. again, a LOT of debris. i backrinsed the filter and cleaned out the bell housing and re-assembled. launched and took off. no change. good until about 3000 rpm's then it would starve and surge. so, i replaced the inline sierra fuel water seperator with the new one i purchased. the old one was RUSTY!. inside too. so i spun on the new one and took off. no change. BUT, i think there may have been a lapse in fuel available when the new seperator was filling. so, then i tried to splice the two wires that were going to the bottom of the fuel water seperator(i didnt know what they were yet) and that gave me the alarm. so i restarted and sat for a minute or so idling. then took off. now it seemed to go good. all the way to 4300rpms where as before we just got to 3000. so drove around for a while and it seemed to be better, but not fixed. i think i will get the replacement fuel filter from honda and go from there. but at this point, definitely a fuel starvation issue.

thanks for the help, ill keep updating.

 

[gss036]

Re: Honda 225 Surging at Mid rpm's

Drain the vapor seperator. There may be junk it also since you have found it every where else. THe owners manual tells you how to do it. My owners book has it on page 77-78.
If that doesn't help, then I would look to the pick up in the fuel tank, maybe it is clogged, some have a strainer orver the end of the line. Most cars also hve them.

 

[Fishin with buds]

Re: Honda 225 Surging at Mid rpm's-crushed fuel filter???

Re: Honda 225 Surging at Mid rpm's-crushed fuel filter???

so i after i took it out last and got some increased performance, but still had it bog down in the 4000 rpm arena, i took it back home and cleaned everything really well. filter and seperator. well, this got me back to having actually reduced performance and now it bogs down around 2000 rpm. so, i went to Honda, got the three new filters(first in-line, second in line, and the high pressure filter) and replaced the high pressure and the first inline filter which is visible when you remove the cowling. the second inline filter is buried such that i cannot for the life of me seem to find it unless it really is on the block side of the injector rails-which makes it a pain in the A## to get to!

to note, the high pressure fuel filter seemed like it had imploded on itself. it was collapsed axially and radially and looked like someone had stepped on it and crushed it??? So i thought that changing this would fix the issue, but took it out htis morning and still get stuck around the 2000 rpm mark. there were a few times when i could get it up to around 4000 but only for a few seconds and then it would start to bog hard and shake.

so, i want to give one more crack at the second inline filter which is right before the fuel pump, but i hate the idea of having to undo all those cowling bolts again.

any other ideas? can one clean honda injectors on their own, or do they need to be sent out as indicated by the shop? could this be a fuel pump issue?

Thanks for any and all.

 

[gss036]

Re: Honda 225 Surging at Mid rpm's

I am looking at my owners manual and it only shows two (2) gas filters, one by the oil dip stick and one (water seperator) under the oil filter. Not even sure there is a filter in it, doesn't say anything about a filter.
Do you have a seperate water/fuel on the line before it enters the cowling? If not, you need one for sure. I just don't know that much about the engine as I only have a few hours on mine and haven't had to do any thing other than chage oil in engine and lower unit.
You might want to try a strong dose of Chevron Techron fuel injector cleaner in you gas.
Are you sure your gas is ok and the tank pickup? Did/or are you running on a portable tank as you earlier said you were going to try?

 

[hondon]

Re: Honda 225 Surging at Mid rpm's

At the end of this all,What is the fuel pressure at the point of failure?Those high pressure filters carry a heavy load and do implode.You might want to check the end play at the crankshaft.Tolerance is .018 inches max.

 

[JUSTINTIME]

Re: Honda 225 Surging at Mid rpm's

u probally need to clean the vst out

 

[tmartin]

Re: Honda 225 Surging at Mid rpm's

I wonder if he ever figured his issue out....

 

[bull175]

Re: Honda 225 Surging at Mid rpm's

Just found this site. I had this exact same problem with my BF130 last time out in the fall. After running good for about ten.. fifteen mins the motor would start to surge...just falling flat on its face...then up again then flat again. Then I would throttle back and it would clear up. Throttle back up again and in another ten mins or so the surging would start again. And also just like the 225 above... going into a wave would set it off.

I was on the fuel delivery track as well. I got home and pulled the cowl and found the water seperator empty and the fuel filter only about 1/3 full. I emptied the vapor separator found nothing unusual. Opened up the fuel filter found nothing out of place. Replaced the old screw on water sep/fuel filter in the bilge with a new one. Pulled the fuel puckup tube and checked the strainer and found nothing. I removed the one way valve at the top of the pickup and replaced it with a regular barb fitting. I have read those could cause trouble.

I have not had a chance to get the boat back into the water again for a test but I hope something Ive done will help. But mainly Im reponding to this thread to bump it back up and keep it alive. Perhaps someone who knows the answer will chime in. But to me it sounds like slow fuel starvation.

Looks like a lot of good info to be found here......

 

[hondon]

Re: Honda 225 Surging at Mid rpm's

Alright everyone,let's not forget about the fuel pick up from the boat. That IS filtered and you also have the anti siphion valve that can become restricted.If you have contaminats that are getting to those filters are'nt they comming from somewhere?Vaccume checks at the input side of the low pressure fuel pump are a wealth of info,or just plug these things into a fuel source you know works and see if things improve.

 

[iang]

Re: Honda 225 Surging at Mid rpm's

Just something to check.I have had a number of V6 Hondas with the very same symptom and it was the soft fuel line being crushed where it runs through the grommet through the cowl.Take the rigging cap off the grommet and check that everything runs through there in an orderly fashion,it can get tight if not rigged properly.I have also had where where salt had crusted in the same area and caused the fuel line to collapse.Have a look at this,it is quick and easy.The tappet noise you are hearing when the engine is starved is the fuel pump under severe vacuum holding the follower away from the cam,this indicates that the low pressure fuel pump is in good oredr and the VST is running out of fuel,so your problem is between the tank and the low pressure fuel pump,no need to look anywhere else.

 

[bull175]

Re: Honda 225 Surging at Mid rpm's

Decided to put mine in the shop. They discovered a clogged high pressure fuel filter. I have no Idea where that is located but I am confident it was my problem.