help '98 Force 120hp runs great on land, wont run on the water???

[kobe24]

Ok, so heres the story. I got a '98 trophy 2002 ff W/A, with a '98 force 120hp outboard,in feb 2011. Had a mechanic check out the motor and everything checked out. mechanic said the idle was a little fast, he adjusted the idle down a bit, and said where good to go.

I took the boat out today for the first time. Before i left i started it in the driveway, all was well. When i get to the marina and launch it, it starts rite up and i leave it to idle. About 3min later it just cuts out. i go over to crank it back up and it wont start, it turns over fine but wont start. So i load it back on the trailer, and try to start it in the lot, again turns over fine but wont start. I pulled the cowling and notice the gear on the starter is stuck up engaging the flywheel and wont drop. So i take it home, about a 30min drive, and put it in the driveway.

About 10min after getting home I put the muffs on and tryed it again. It starts rite up and runs fine??? I pulled the cowling back off and the stater gear was droped back down. Whats the deal with that? why would it run on the hose, but not in the water?? Could that gear on the starter have anything to do with it or is that a seperat issue?

Can anyone help me out? Im new to the boating world, and dont know much about these outboards. But with some guidance im pritty shure i could handle the repairs. It seems like a pritty simple motor. thanks

 

[pnwboat]

Re: help '98 Force 120hp runs great on land, wont run on the water???

It is a very basic motor which makes it pretty easy to maintain if you have basic mechanical skills and some understanding of 2-stroke outboards. Make sure you are mixing it with a 50:1 fuel/oil ratio. Once the motor starts, it'll kick the gear on the starter back down.

1. Make sure your battery cable connections are good and clean by removing them and cleaning them with a wire brush. This includes the ground connection on the engine block and positive cable connections on the starter solenoid.

2. Make sure the Kill Switch lanyard is attached so the ignition system (ignition spark) is functional.

3. Squeeze the primer bulb 4 or 5 times until it gets firm.

4. Put the throttle in the Neutral Fast Idle position. To do this you either have a button in the center of the throttle handle where it pivots you push or you simply pull the throttle out towards the center of the boat. It should come out about a 1/4 of and inch. Once the handle pops out, (this is neutral) push the throttle forward. This will put it in Fast Idle.

5. Turn the key to engage the starter. While turning the key, push in on the ignition switch. This engages the choke, or in your case, the "fuel enrichment valve" which does the same thing. Do not engage the choke for more than 3 or 4 seconds at a time, otherwise it will flood the motor. These motors are easy to flood which will prevent them from starting. If everything is working, it shouldn't take more than 2 or 3 tries for the motor to start.

 

[jerryjerry05]

Re: help '98 Force 120hp runs great on land, wont run on the water???

The last guy who lowered the rpms probably lowered them too much.
Should be about 750-800 in gear.About 1150-1200 in the drive.

 

[kobe24]

Re: help '98 Force 120hp runs great on land, wont run on the water???

pwnboat, i always do steps 2-5 before starting. step 1 i did the day before i took the boat out. starter sounded a little week. batterys are bolth brand new. so i cleaned all conections with sand paper and a wire brush. no more starter isues

jerry, i thought the same thing. but in the driveway on the hose and in N it idles at 1200rpm.

i remember the mechanic did a compresion test and all cylinders where 120psi and up so its probly not a compresion isue rite?

so what else could it be??? thanks for the help fellas, keep it coming.

 

[pnwboat]

Re: help '98 Force 120hp runs great on land, wont run on the water???

Intermittent problems can be a difficult to fix. I think the best thing to do is to try and duplicate the problem. Putting it in the water may or may not of had nothing to do with the problem. Possibly just a coincidence. When it acts up, check for spark. This way you have a better idea as to what to check. Meanwhile you can check the ignition kill switch with a meter. It should read "Open" with the lanyard attached, "Closed" or a dead short when you pull the lanyard off. Start it up at home with the muffs and garden hose or better yet a tub of water and let it run for a while and see if it acts up again.

 

[kobe24]

Re: help '98 Force 120hp runs great on land, wont run on the water???

Yea, thats a good idea to try it in a tub of water. That should be the same as taking it to the marina rite? Since its not being fed pressurised water. Its a real pain to tow it 30miles to the marina in Los Angeles trafic and pay a $12 entrance fee just to trouble shoot. Do i have to take the prop off to run it in a tub?

What kind of meter? Just any volt tester? Ill have to buy or barrow one.

 

[pnwboat]

Re: help '98 Force 120hp runs great on land, wont run on the water???

No you don't have to take the prop off. Just don't put it in gear. Here's what I use. It's a farm animal water tank. It's 2'X2'X4' and holds 103 gallons of water. Found it on Craigslist for $20.



You need a meter similar to this. Doesn't have to be high dollar. This covers all the basics.

http://www.amazon.com/Equus-3320-Auto-Ranging-Digital-Multimeter/dp/B000EVYGZA/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1337051815&sr=8-2

 

[kobe24]

Re: help '98 Force 120hp runs great on land, wont run on the water???

Ok thanks for the help and info pnwboat, appreciate it. Ill get the meter and the water tank and try it. ill post back the results in a few days when i get everything together. im going to try and video tape the test, that might help.

 

[kobe24]

Re: help '98 Force 120hp runs great on land, wont run on the water???

Well it happend on the hose and muffs. Ive got spark so its not a spark isue. but i think its a fuel prob, it ran until the fuel line and fuel filter ran dry, then it died. The primer bulb went soft to, tank has 16gal in it. So what do you think? Bad fuel filter? Bad valves in primer bulb? Or somthing else?

 

[pnwboat]

Re: help '98 Force 120hp runs great on land, wont run on the water???

One of three things.

1. Bad primer bulb. Not uncommon for the check valve to go bad and restrict the flow of fuel. Since the problem seems to be intermittent, this would be my first guess.

2. Bad fuel pump. Typically if the fuel pump diaphragm goes bad, it's bad and the problem never goes away. Not likely the problem but you never know. Might be a good thing to change anyways as preventive maintenance if you don't know when it was last done. This is a show stopper if it fails. They cost less than $15.

3. Fuel pick up tube in the tank has something intermittently blocking it. Have to take the fuel sending assy. out of the tank to inspect inside the tank. Sometimes this is not an easy task depending on how the tank sits in your boat. Not sure I would do this yet without first replacing the primer bulb and fuel pump diaphragm.

 

[kobe24]

Re: help '98 Force 120hp runs great on land, wont run on the water???

Ouch...i hope its not a bad diaphragm, or a clogged fuel pickup. If the prob is in the tank ill have to cut the deck open to get to it. If its the diaphragm, it sounds like your saying ill need a new powerhead.:facepalm: Isthat rite? why cant it be fixed??

Ive got the repair order from the last service dun by prev owner on 2/25/11 and a diaphragm kit is in there. part# 21-857005A1 $21.00. Is that it?

 

[pnwboat]

Re: help '98 Force 120hp runs great on land, wont run on the water???

I wouldn't assume that there's an issue with the power head. Easy enough to check if you want to set your mind at ease with a compression test. The diaphragm kit is the fuel pump diaphragm. That was replaced over a year ago. Probably OK. Try the primer bulb first. If there's any way, check/replace the fuel line between the fuel tank and primer bulb. Usually there's a round inspection hatch held in place with screws in the floor to access the fuel line and electrical fuel gauge connections at the tank.

IBoats has the diaphragm kit for $8.99.

 

[jerryjerry05]

Re: help '98 Force 120hp runs great on land, wont run on the water???

The pickup is easily accessable and checkable.Should be under a deck plate somewhere or at the back of the boat.
The fuel pump diaphram is no biggie and no internal motor parts are affected.
He means it won't fix itself.It must be replaced.Easy job.Just a piece of rubber. and a few little pieces of plastic.J

 

[kobe24]

Re: help '98 Force 120hp runs great on land, wont run on the water???

Ok thanks for clearing that up for me jerry. i was freekin out a bit.LoL. Ok ill work my way down the line till i find the prob. Im going to replace the primer bulb first and see if that fix the prob. Next the fuel line between the primer bulb and fuel tank( i need to get down there anyway to put in a new fuel guage). and last ill check the fuel pickup line in the tank. Thanks again for the help fellas, ill post back the results and findings as i work down the line.

 

[kobe24]

Re: help '98 Force 120hp runs great on land, wont run on the water???

I just opened the port hole in my deck to check out the fuel tank and i dont know how im going to check the fuel pickup line. All the lines are welded into the tank.(see picture: http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r557/TheHideOut818/P5210009.jpg ) Top is the pickup. Right is the vent. Left is the filler. Bottom is the sender.

The only opening in the tank is the sending unit but its to small to fit my hand into.(see picture: http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r557/TheHideOut818/P5210010.jpg )

Any ideas how to check if the pickup is cloged without being able to pull it out? I think i need to change the sending unit (fuel guage isnt working) but ive never seen an electric sender before. All the ones ive seen have the fuel pickup line built into the sender. This one doesnt. Where do i get a sender this length?or can thay be adjusted to req length? Its an 85gal tank, Sender Length is 13.5", trophys web site has the model (USM SENDER PART #1747300) but i dont know where to get it. can anyone tell me where to find it?

 

[pnwboat]

Re: help '98 Force 120hp runs great on land, wont run on the water???

Remove the five screws holding the fuel gauge sending unit. There may be a gasket under the round cover. Slowly remove the sending unit. Depending on the style, it may have an arm 8-12 inches long with a float on the end of it. You have to be careful not to bend the arm as you remove it. Once you get it out, you should be able to look into the tank to see if there is any debris or crud in the tank. If you have some compressed air, blow into the fuel line from the motor and look for any debris coming out of the pick up tube.

Universal fuel gauge sending units are available right here in iBoats. Just measure the depth of your tank for the correct unit. The float has to be adjusted to read correctly for your particular tank. You can check your old sending unit with a meter. Measure between the center electrical connector and the cap w/5 holes. With the float all the way in one position ( I forget which it is, up or down), it should read about 33 ohms. Move the float all the way to the other position, it should read about 240 ohms.

http://www.iboats.com/Universal-Electric-Sending-Unit/dm/*******.479575085--session_id.336140980--view_id.392304

Here is the gasket if you need one. I don't know if the sending unit comes with one.

http://www.iboats.com/Replacement-Gasket-For-Moeller-Sending-Units/dm/*******.479575085--session_id.336140980--view_id.483908

 

[bentle]

Re: help '98 Force 120hp runs great on land, wont run on the water???

I noticed as I read through each thread that there was no mentioning of the fuel vent.
Should be located somewhere on the rear of the boat.
If plugged and not venting then you will have same results.
easy way to test is to loosen the fuel cap and see if the prob clears up.
If so then something is blocking the vent and will need to be cleared up.
Hope I didn't miss this in the other threads and if so then I offer my apologies.

 

[Babylon519]

Re: help '98 Force 120hp runs great on land, wont run on the water???

"The primer bulb went soft to, tank has 16gal in it. So what do you think? Bad fuel filter? Bad valves in primer bulb? Or somthing else?"

The service manual for my Force 120 L-Drive says at the beginning: "Important: Due to its inboard-type installation, do not install a primer bulb in the the fuel line of an L-Drive."

The motor has never had trouble drawing fuel from the built-in tank. If your bulb is sucked flat, wouldn't that be the same as a fuel restriction? Just a thought...

 

[Jiggz]

Re: help '98 Force 120hp runs great on land, wont run on the water???

Well it happend on the hose and muffs. Ive got spark so its not a spark isue. but i think its a fuel prob, it ran until the fuel line and fuel filter ran dry, then it died. The primer bulb went soft to, tank has 16gal in it. So what do you think? Bad fuel filter? Bad valves in primer bulb? Or somthing else?

Let me throw in my 2 cents. Is the fuel filter a see-through type? If not try replacing it with a see-through type so you can see if bubbles are present which means there is air leak between the fuel pump suction and the gas tank. Replace the fuel hose or check the clamps. If there are no bubbles, then it could be a blocked suction hose or a faulty fuel pump. To isolate which one is faulty get an extra fuel line, disconnect the existing suction line and install this new line and feed it from an external tank. If the problem persists, the fuel pump needs to be replaced. If the problem ceases, then the original fuel hose needs to be either replaced or blow it back to remove blockage (I seriously doubt this is the culprit, otherwise you will not even able to manually prime the bulb if the pickup tube is actually blocked). Be careful you will have to open the gas tank cap to relieve pressure or better yet empty the tank first. Remember, the softening of the primer bulb will have to be interpreted in two ways, if it collapses even a bit instead of just getting soft it's an indication of a blockage in the suction. If it just gotten soft it could be air leaks or faulty fuel pump.

 

[kobe24]

Re: help '98 Force 120hp runs great on land, wont run on the water???

Sorry for the delay, ive bin bizzy the last week..Thats an idea jiggz thanks. ill give it a try. I do have a see thru fuel filter but it sits low in the housing. Cant realy get a good look at it to see if there are bubles in it. But the fuel only fills up about 15-20% of the fuel filter. Is that normal? I dont know babylon, the boat came that way. anyone else know the answer to that??

I went out today and tryed to start it again. Started rite up, let it idle for 15min. Then shut it off and started it again, all was well. Went inside to eat diner and came back out 20-30min later and it wont start. The primer bulb felt fine this time. I taped it running but the video got messed up some how:facepalm:. here's 2 video's of it not starting 20min later http://youtu.be/-8OVtfjg7Rw , http://youtu.be/HTzgC6JhqEo Batts are realy low, barely enough jucie to crank the motor.