fuel water separator almost worthless for ethanol laced gasoline?

[sdowney717]

I was just thinking about this. It takes only a small amount of absorbed water for the ethanol to phase separate out of the gas. seeing it is at least 10 % ethanol, that means in a 100 gallon tank, 10 gallons of ethanol-water mix will be sitting on the tank bottom. That is too much for the separator to handle.
PLUS, now the gasoline floating on top is of poor quality octane wise.

ALSO since the water is absorbed into the fuel and freely mixed with it, what good is a fuel-water separator until the fuel actually does phase separate? It wont be separating out any water as the water is mixed up with the ethanol - gas mixture.

Once that fuel phase separates, most web sites I read say it needs to be totally pumped out as the motor wont run well using it.

 

[Don S]

Re: fuel water separator almost worthless for ethanol laced gasoline?

Those filters do a lot more than just collect water from phase seperation.
Believe it or not, there are other ways for water to get into tanks, dirt too.

 

[Rocky_Road]

Re: fuel water separator almost worthless for ethanol laced gasoline?

I was just thinking about this. It takes only a small amount of absorbed water for the ethanol to phase separate out of the gas. seeing it is at least 10 % ethanol, that means in a 100 gallon tank, 10 gallons of ethanol-water mix will be sitting on the tank bottom. That is too much for the separator to handle.
PLUS, now the gasoline floating on top is of poor quality octane wise.

ALSO since the water is absorbed into the fuel and freely mixed with it, what good is a fuel-water separator until the fuel actually does phase separate? It wont be separating out any water as the water is mixed up with the ethanol - gas mixture.

Once that fuel phase separates, most web sites I read say it needs to be totally pumped out as the motor wont run well using it.

A 10 micron filter will seperate the water from the fuel, as designed.

You have the advantage (being an outboard owner) of using the RACOR filter with the clear drain bowl, and can visually see how much water is being extracted. Any one running a marine engine these days without a fuel/water seperator is 'whistling past the graveyard'!

Happy boating!

 

[sdowney717]

Re: fuel water separator almost worthless for ethanol laced gasoline?

yes, I have 2 separators. I dont think you read what I wrote or understood it.

I put the boat back in the water after sitting out for several years repair.
Put some fuel in.
Start motors, goto slip ok, then it cools off after a few months and start motors and whamo, massive amount of water in the separators, fuel had totally phase separated.
I used a vacuum jar to suck out the bad fuel on the bottom and got a lot of gummy black ethanol-water fuel. Sucked it till it ran clear.
Took about 5 gallons out of each tank.

No way the separator could handle that.

here is a shot of me sucking out the bad fuel. I setup a fan to blow away any fumes.
I got both tanks clean maybe.

you can see the black fuel in the jar and the clearer better fuel starting to come in at the top.

 

[Rocky_Road]

Re: fuel water separator almost worthless for ethanol laced gasoline?

Did you use any of the numerous ethanol fuel additives?

I use StaBil Marine (ethanol) formula at every fuel stop. I am convinced that it has been to my benefit.

 

[sdowney717]

Re: fuel water separator almost worthless for ethanol laced gasoline?

only thing I put in was PRI-G, it is good for rejuvenating old gas, does nothing to help with water and ethanol in gas.

The boat had sat a while out of the water while I worked on it for several years. Putting in the new type of gasoline with ethanol caused all the tank gums to dissolve and that is the heavy brown color of the fuel that I pumped out. That stuff was odd, a brown-black syrpy looking liquid mixture of gum-ethanol-water, smelled of pure alcohol. It was a sticky varnish. The only thing that dissolves it is alcohol or fresh water. The bucket I poured the slop into I took home and let water sit in them and they came clean.

I would suck, fill up the vacuum jar with the crap, decant off the floating gasoline leaving the gunk, then pour the gunk into buckets and the gas back into the tank, over and over till it ran clear.

 

[Rocky_Road]

Re: fuel water separator almost worthless for ethanol laced gasoline?

only thing I put in was PRI-G, it is good for rejuvenating old gas, does nothing to help with water and ethanol in gas.

The boat had sat a while out of the water while I worked on it for several years. Putting in the new type of gasoline with ethanol caused all the tank gums to dissolve and that is the heavy brown color of the fuel that I pumped out. That stuff was odd, a brown-black syrpy looking liquid mixture of gum-ethanol-water, smelled of pure alcohol. It was a sticky varnish. The only thing that dissolves it is alcohol or fresh water. The bucket I poured the slop into I took home and let water sit in them and they came clean.

I would suck, fill up the vacuum jar with the crap, decant off the floating gasoline leaving the gunk, then pour the gunk into buckets and the gas back into the tank, over and over till it ran clear.

Wow...this is the poster child for everything that is wrong about having to boat with E-10!

Are you confident that your rubber fuel lines are E-10 ready? I have seen many threads about older fuel lines breaking down and ending up in the carb(s), with the exact same described 'gunk'.

I don't see where you could be doing anything different...and I hope that all goes well.

Happy boating!

 

[sdowney717]

Re: fuel water separator almost worthless for ethanol laced gasoline?

I replaced all lines after this just in case. They were a little ragged but were supposedly ethanol compatible.
Ends used to be Aeroquip fittings type that screw into armored hose, and I changed to brass hose barbs
Cost was the reason I switched as the other type line costs $4 per foot versus $1 per foot for A1.

 

[Chris1956]

Re: fuel water separator almost worthless for ethanol laced gasoline?

You better quality fuel. I have never seen that kind of water in a tank before. I recommend you find a different source for fuel.

 

[JB]

Re: fuel water separator almost worthless for ethanol laced gasoline?

Well, clearly all of us who have been using E10 and water separating filters for years are mistaken.

That can't possibly work and our engines have not been running well after all.

 

[skargo]

Re: fuel water separator almost worthless for ethanol laced gasoline?

I use Startron or Stabil, whichever is on sale, with every fuel fillup. I also fill my tank(60 gallons) in the fall when I mothball the boat, and use a heavier dose of additive.

She fires right up in the Spring.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: fuel water separator almost worthless for ethanol laced gasoline?

Let's analyze this a bit more. 1) Boat sat for two years with all but unprotected tanks. 2) Hot/cold cycles suck in a bunch of moisture. Ever see the amount of water that can be drained from aviation fuel under those conditons? I've seen a one quart mason jar full of water taken from the fuel tank (non-E10) of a "Breezy". 3) Now you add E-10 to an already contaminated mixture and it begins doing it's job of cleaning up the gunk from how many years of fuel system neglect. And 4) E-10 takes the blame -- again. E-10 cleaned up the mess -- it didn't create it.

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: fuel water separator almost worthless for ethanol laced gasoline?

agreed ^^
The first question suggests that a seperator can't handle e-10. What is can't handle is ancient gunkified gas, or accumulated water in a tank from whatever source, even if it's mixed with good gas.

E-10 breaks down and attracts water if left standing untreated for several months (more or less depending on climate, initial purity and other factors). Filters address that problem; there is no problem to address with fresh gas from a clean tank. Bear in mind that many gas stations' gas has water in it; marinas are worse. So the question is not just about e-10 but also gas used in boats. That's one reason why it's not an issue, much, with land vehicles.

It doesn't matter what the condition of your gas is on top; all that matters is condition at the pick up tube--yes, the very bottom.

Stabilizing with addititives is simply another line of defense to the problem. Some may say it's redundant to a good filter, or vice versa. if the gas is already old, the additives do little good.

New e-10 will strip off gunk on the tank sides, hoses, etc. better than the seperated gas, but the resulting problem is the old tank and its pre-existing gunk, not the new gas that broke it down.

And I wouldn't use that recycled gas off the top in a boat, either.

 

[sdowney717]

Re: fuel water separator almost worthless for ethanol laced gasoline?

Bear in mind that many gas stations' gas has water in it

I think if there is enough water to notice in a separator then it has already phase separated..
A quick look brings this
http://www.daybreakfishing.com/ethanol-fuel.html

E-10 can hold up to four teaspoons of water in suspension per gallon. Once this saturation point is exceeded, the solution separates and the gas floats on top while the ethanol and water mix on the bottom. This event is called "phase separation". Ethanol fuel can absorb enough water to reach it's phase separation point in just over 3 months at 70% humidity.

Yes, absolutely old gas gummy tank, but E10 is like leaving something outside in the rain and it gets ruined. If e10 had not gone in the tank, It would not have been such a big problem. When the fuel phase separates, the entire volume of ethanol and water goes to the bottom, not just the little bit of water suspended in the fuel.

four teaspoons per gallon is enough to phase separate. This is a tiny amount of water.
And it has me worried for If I dont get all the phase separated fuel out, then adding new E10, it might just phase separate over and over and over again. So it is like a curse coming back to bite you and you just cant escape.

Plus, phase sep point is temperature dependent, lower temps can bring it on. So when I went to slip it was ok, still suspended, but a few months later (December), it got cold and it separated.

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: fuel water separator almost worthless for ethanol laced gasoline?

empty your tank completely. clean it. fill with new gasoline. treat it. spin on a new filter. done.

 

[dingbat]

Re: fuel water separator almost worthless for ethanol laced gasoline?

Ifour teaspoons per gallon is enough to phase separate.

I see you are a follower of the fuzzy math internet marketing club

Fact: Ethanol will suspend / absorb 0.05% water at 60 degrees F

Let us do the math for 60 degrees
1 gallon = 133 oz
1 teaspoon = 0.166 ounces
1 gallon of E-10 contains 13.3 oz of ethanol

Absorption = 13.3 oz x 0.5% = 0.0665 oz of water per gallon

Convert ounces to teaspoons = 0.0665 / 0.166 = 0.4 teaspoons per gallon

 

[Outsider]

Re: fuel water separator almost worthless for ethanol laced gasoline?

that means in a 100 gallon tank, 10 gallons of ethanol-water mix will be sitting on the tank bottom.

I think there are too many assumptions here. Before phase separation, your filter should bypass most absorbed water to the engine and be burned without any notice since it's spread around the entire fuel volume. Filters are most effective with 'free' water, do very little with water 'absorbed' by the ethanol before separation from the fuel mixture. Without getting into oz and gallons, phase separation occurs when the alcohol content of the fuel absorbs water to saturation, the water/alcohol mixture then separates out and ends up on the bottom. Filters should stop that water to the point of filter saturation, then bypass it to the engine with less than sterling operating characteristics. But you're correct, no filter will handle phase separation from 100 gal of fuel.

Appears to me you're afflicted with another by-product of ethanol - it's a solvent and will scour your fuel system of varnish and sludge. That's where the black 'gunk' comes from ...

 

[GA_Boater]

Re: fuel water separator almost worthless for ethanol laced gasoline?

The OP posted this in another thread. Could this be the source of the black gunk along with the known "cleaning" qualities of ethanol?. Over an unknown time period, dumping 2 cycle oil in would result in a higher percentage of oil unless the tank(s) are always run bone dry.

Re: Adding diesel to gas instead of marvel mo

I have wondered about this.
My boats previous owner added small amount of 2 cycle oil to the gas.

benefits could be
keeping the fuel from gumming? As in when gasoline dries up in the carbs and blocks passages.
or
as an upper cylinder and valve stem lube

adverse could be
oil in the exhaust leaving a water sheen?

A little amount of oil wont hurt, too much turns the exhaust smoky like a car with a worn out motor.
I dont see how it would hurt anything. For a while I burned up some old atf oil in the car at a ratio of a qt to 20 gallons. If I went any higher, starting took 2 seconds longer cranking time. The car ran exactly the same otherwise.​

Just a thought.

 

[Rocky_Road]

Re: fuel water separator almost worthless for ethanol laced gasoline?

The OP posted this in another thread. Could this be the source of the black gunk along with the known "cleaning" qualities of ethanol?. Over an unknown time period, dumping 2 cycle oil in would result in a higher percentage of oil unless the tank(s) are always run bone dry.



Just a thought.

Hmmm.

The plot thickens (along with the gas)!

Happy boating!

 

[JB]

Re: fuel water separator almost worthless for ethanol laced gasoline?

Yeah!! And beside that, a bumblebee cannot fly. It is all in your imagination.

What a silly debate!! We have been using the stuff successfully for years. It is far too late to explain why it won't work.