Foam Core VS Balsa Core - no stringers

Intermediate Mariner

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Hello,
Wanted to get some opinions on this.

I am working on a 60 or 61 Red Fish but unsure of model
(I think it's a Baylap, Inland or a Shark without fins. Has 3 slats on the side.. inland has 2 and baylap has 4 so not sure... if anyone knows model would love to know).

This boat had a balsa floor sandwiched between fiberglass. I had to scoop it out and was wanted to go back with foam since it has NONE! Also planning liquid foam on the underside of the top half.

The balsa pieces were 3/4" so i am thinking 3/4" dow foam followed by some urethane liquid foam for the gaps. I was then thinking of sealing that in with epoxy resin since poly eats the foam (does anyone know if it eats the blue dow foam?).

ALSO: the boat had no stringers.. only a 2-piece plywood transom. Should I add some stringers?? The unit seemed sort of flimsy even with the balsa.

Any input appreciated.. this is my first floor/transom job.

Thanks

Shawn t
wichita ks
 

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tdrudd87

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Re: Foam Core VS Balsa Core - no stringers

Yep, poly will eat the sheet foam, be it blue or pink. As far as doing the floor, hopefully someone with more high-tech composite experience will chime in.

Terry
 

Intermediate Mariner

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Re: Foam Core VS Balsa Core - no stringers

Thanks TRudd,
Nice job on your boat.. I seen that thread before - now that's a floor!! Nice on motor and cradle too, it's ready for the big waves. How's it holding up? What kind of poly did you use, the kind without wax mixed in?
Thanks again
 

jonesg

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Re: Foam Core VS Balsa Core - no stringers

Get a sheet of urethane foam from home depot, about $24.
Peel the coating off one side and score it deep with a steak knife, glue to wood with a thin film of polyester, then squeegee polyester into the cuts in the foam. Apply more resin and stick the second ply layer on top.
I did a T top in a similar way and it came out very rigid...and cheap.:p
 

tdrudd87

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Re: Foam Core VS Balsa Core - no stringers

Thanks Intermediate! I used unwaxed poly from a fiberglass shop, 7 gallons so far, and about 3 to go. Hopefully have the deck glassed this weekend!

Terry
 

ondarvr

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Re: Foam Core VS Balsa Core - no stringers

Balsa is one of the toughest cores you can find and the foam you're looking at is by far one of the least durable, its not even remotely designed to be used as a core.

You take it from there.
 

Intermediate Mariner

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Re: Foam Core VS Balsa Core - no stringers

Thanks everyone for the input.

Jones: Home Depot doesnt carry urethane board, no one does (my luck) but I did find a suppliers that does and am waiting for them to call me back with price (that's never good).

Ondarvr, shoot you got me worried now and re-thinking... but I wanted to add some foam in case she ever tries to sink, she had none. I have seen foam cores before which is why I wanted to go with it, I figured it would be win/win with a lighter hull and added flotation.

With my experience you can drive a car over foam and it not crush but not as strong rigid-wise... that is why I had an idea to maybe add some stringers for support since she had none of those either.

I am stumped now. Are you saying I should go back with balsa?
 

Intermediate Mariner

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Re: Foam Core VS Balsa Core - no stringers

One reason I wanted to not go back with balsa was because of this: the old balsa parquettes were like 500 little sponges - all water logged completely.. it was a mushy mess. I figured a urethane foam would be just the ticket since it doesn't like to soak up water as much... you should of seen that balsa, it was like balsa soup! I scooped it out with a shovel with little effort.

How about some marine ply stringers with urethane foam board with cracks filled it followed by fiberglass obver that followed by exterior 1/2 plywood floor for carpet and seats? Could that work?
 

ondarvr

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Re: Foam Core VS Balsa Core - no stringers

There are foams designed for this application, but not the cheap stuff from Home Depot,
the type used for this is very expensive and can be ordered on line, it's also safe to use with polyester resin.

Balsa is high in strength, light and low in cost, that's why it gets used, I'm not a big fan of cored hulls for normal use though.

The safe method (less chance of a problem in the future) is to add a little glass to the hull and add stringers. You can do it either way though.
 

Intermediate Mariner

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Re: Foam Core VS Balsa Core - no stringers

thanks Ond..
Im sure with you on adding glass to hull! It seems pretty thin.

The balsa probably did the trick in the 60's and for about 20 years. To tell you the truth the balsa was not as rotted as it was just completely water-logged.

This boat is awfully shallow... In theory then maybe I could in some "shorty stringers" in 3/4" marine ply and glass over them... would I want to go length-wise?

Also, it's flat in the back and slanted to a "V" in the front where the seats go... so maybe I would also want to run some cross-members under the seats? And maybe fill with foam in between?

Thanks!
 

drewpster

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Re: Foam Core VS Balsa Core - no stringers

Recently I was in on a repair to a house boat top using end grain balsa core. A section of the fly bridge deck was rotten and soft. We simply sectioned out the bad core and replaced it with new. What surprised me was the strength of it when it was done. We had to remove the fly bridge to make the repair so strength was a concern. But Man! was it solid as a rock when completed. If balsa was the original core, I recommend going back with it. It makes a stout repair.

enjoy
drewp
 

Intermediate Mariner

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Re: Foam Core VS Balsa Core - no stringers

I appreciate the input drew (and I know you know your stuff after seeing your transom/floor job)!

I just can't bring myself to put balsa back in. I do not know much about it but I'll bet you cannot screw into it securely for mounting things, it seems VERY soft. Also the balsa was sealed in-between 2 sheets of glass so would never dry. Also it could be costly. Plus I really want to get some foam in this unit.

Am I thinking way wrong on this? I am leaning towards adding stringers... filling in with urethane foam... and either glassing over and/or adding a deck. For the deck I was thinking Pressure Treated.
 

Intermediate Mariner

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Re: Foam Core VS Balsa Core - no stringers

How about this for the floor?

And I am unsure of proper terminology but I'll call them vertical stringers (running parallel to transom along inside bottom).
By the way interesting article here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boat_building

I was thinking about flat 3/4" marine ply vertically strung from side to side first. This will eliminate twisting as well as give me a small bilge since it does not have one.

Then fill with foam either sheet or liquid. Follow that with 1/2 plywood deck. This should give it more rigidity that balsa core provided.

Opinions appreciated.

Thanks
 

dannyboy3220

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Re: Foam Core VS Balsa Core - no stringers

im in the same boat .......ish. a 68 shell lake, the only differance is that my balsa was powder up front and soup in the rear. im at the same juncture ,to string or not to string, to foam or not to foam. the bad part about it is , if i string it and put in a deck im adding a lot of height to an already shallow boat. but if i put foam in it will it be as solid as the balsa? what about multable layers of the 1/4" foam ? four layers of those badboys would deff increase rigidity. ( resin..glass..foam..resin..glass..foam......ect ) until the desired thickness and strengh in reached, and on the stringer idea what about inbetween the stringers where the hull is 1/4" thick and very flimsy?:confused:
 
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Re: Foam Core VS Balsa Core - no stringers

IM,

Rip out the deck. Replace it with 3/4" exterior ply glassed on both sides and glassed in. You could then add a structural two part pour in foam underneath the deck. Should add plenty of support and floatation as well. You could also lay a greased piece of 3/4" plastic pipe down the keel line before you foam. Then when the foam sets pull out the pipe and you have a drainage path. Not perfect but should do you for many years. J.Greer.com sells various density foams for various applications including structural.
 

erikgreen

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Re: Foam Core VS Balsa Core - no stringers

Well, since no one except ondarvr has mentioned composite design and what to use for cores, I'll cover it a bit more.

Wood deck

There are two ways to build part of a boat (like a deck) with a core. The first way you use a strong material like plywood and waterproof it. This means the plywood is the strength of the deck. The glass over it protects it from the one thing that will destroy it quickly... water. If the wood is protected from water coming in, it will last longer than you own the boat.

Unfortunately most people with wood decks either let them get cracked or screw or bolt things onto them without sealing the holes (seats for example) and this lets water get to the wood.

The problem with your balsa deck wasn't the balsa, it was the water that got to it.

Composite panels

The second way to build something with a core is as a composite panel. The difference between the wood deck and composite deck is that the strength of the composite panel comes from the skins. Google "composite panel" if you want the full explanation, but basically the core material holds the skins apart and parallel. It's like the web in an I-beam.. the top and bottom hold the weight, the web keeps them in place.

Don't mix up the two concepts. You can't take a plywood deck, replace the plywood with foam, and get something equally strong. Foam isn't stiff/strong enough to work like the plywood deck, so to replace ply with foam you have to alter the deck construction to make it a composite panel (you have to thicken the skins and change resin).

How composite panels work

A composite panel is essentially two high strength skins separated by foam. The thickness of the foam affects the stiffness and strength of the panel. Holding two suitably strong skins an inch apart makes the panel about as stiff as inch thick plywood, but lighter. Aerospace engineers call this design form "stressed skin construction".

Fiberglass is plenty strong for the skins, and you can also use fancy fibers like kevlar or carbon if you need more strength. The fibers are only part of the panel, though.

Core requirements

The core has to be strong enough to hold the skins in place. Specifically the glass must adhere well to it, and it must resist crushing and shearing (must not crush or pull apart). If the skins pull off the core (called delamination) then the deck is flexible and weak (and won't hold your weight) until repaired.

The problem with all the foams sold in home depot and the like is that they're low density insulation foams. That means they're very low density because they're meant to block heat transfer. That also means they have very low compression strength and low shear strength.

The core in a composite panel has to A) Keep the skins from moving away from it and B) Keep the skins from crushing it inward. If you think about it, the skins can't move any other way in normal use. To keep the skins from moving away the foam core must not break apart (shear strength) and to keep the skins from moving inward (being crushed) the foam core must have compression strength.

Core foam specifics

To give you an idea, the foam normally used as a composite core material is usually 8 lb/cf or better density.. it's like a soft rock in hardness. You can't easily dent it with a fingernail, and a 4 inch thick piece won't crush under your weight. These properties make it a good composite core. I'm sure you know how easily insulation foam crushes by comparison. Most insulation foam is between 1 and 2 lbs/cf density. They're both called "foam" but that's about the only similarity between them.

Balsa core

Balsa, specifically end grain balsa, is also an excellent core. It's fairly light, and if it's in sheets of squares bound together with a glass mesh it conforms to curves well. It's very, very strong under compression, stronger than foam. Hence it makes for light, stiff decks and structure. Again though, the problem with it is that if water gets to it, it rots.

Poly resin

It should be obvious from the description of how composite panels work that the skins have to be glued to the foam very strongly. If the foam and glass don't break, then the panel will hold until the glue gives out.

A composite panel made from high density foam with glass skins and poly resin will be strong and stiff, but the weak link in this case is the resin. Poly is an ok glue, having about a 200psi adhesion strength but if the force on the panel (deck) exceeds that limit, then the panel delaminates by the core separating from the glass or the individual glass fibers pulling loose in the skins. That wouldn't happen in a solid piece of fiberglass unless it bent a lot... composite panels work differently.

Epoxy resin

That's an area where epoxy shines... it's a great glue with 10x the adhesion of polyester resin, so epoxy composite panels are very strong. There's even a couple marine architects who design boats for epoxy composite construction for this reason... their boats are easier to build and lighter than any molded polyester resin boat. The hulls and structure have plywood or foam cores.

Summary

So, to recap... if you build any load bearing structure out of cheap foam sheets with glass over them, it'll fail pretty quickly. The foam is just too light. You can use the foam for flotation (since it's low density and light) or in composite panels or filler for certain non structural applications (T tops no one walks on or similar) but if you want a non rot deck you either need high density foam sheet (expensive) or an alternative like polycore.

Polycore (the major brand is Nidacore) is a plastic honeycomb material made for use as a composite core. You can also get Nomex and aluminum versions. I'm making a deck now out of it using epoxy, with two layers of half inch core and about 12 layers of glass. It'll be lighter than plywood, stronger, and more impact resistant. It'll also never rot, but I'm mostly doing it for strength and weight reasons.

If you can't stand to have a wood deck, pay the price and use a commercial marine foam product. Expect to pay anywhere from $150 to $400 per 4x8 sheet. I pay about $60 per 4x8 for poly core. Some folks have also tried "casting" their own foam sheets using pourable foam, which comes in densities up to 16 lb/cf.

Or, just relax and use a plywood core (you can use plywood as a composite core, by the way.. use thinner ply than 3/4" and thicker skins) and take the time to waterproof it. Seal all the holes and keep them sealed and you'll be fine.

Erik
 

mrdude

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Re: Foam Core VS Balsa Core - no stringers

just came across this thread by accident. i myself am working on replacing the deck on a 24ft pontoon. and am using 1/2 blue styrofoam (dow product) and i put it on the table saw to cut half through the sheets in both directions, brush epoxy resin into the voids.. this will help to make the sheets riged enough to stand on with minimal flex, then fiberglassed both sides with epoxy resin.. epoxy resin makes a permanent bond to styrofoam. when making composites bonding is very important.
the blue dow styro actually has super compressive and shear strength.. do your own test. i stacked 350 lbs on a 5"x8" area of a 1/2 peice of foam, after 2 days the foam is not dented or compressed.. you can go to the dow site and read about the foams density, compressive strength, and shear strength.. some boat builders even use it as stringers glassed over with epoxy. one may think the foam has low compressive strength because u can push a finger in and dent it fairly easily buy once glassed over the glass distributes the pressure over a much larger area therefore compression in a small area is not a factor. using epoxy has one major drawback... when exposed to uv it degrades rapidly.. it must be covered with something.. adding white pigment to the resin will help.. in my case i am simply covering it with carpet. in all, blue styro is good stuff to use! since you will not find any home builder that has ever attemted to do this, i cant say how long my composite sheets will last but only time will tell huh.
for those who think... i might try that too!... the way to anchor the sheets to the deck is drill through 3/8", fill with epoxy, drill again, then countersink.
 

sasto

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Re: Foam Core VS Balsa Core - no stringers

Balsa is the industry standard for most decks and soles. Nidacore or Corecell are used quite often also. I use Corecell because it is readilly available around here, but wouldn't hesitate using balsa. I would do more research on styrofoam or the other boards (blue, pink) as they are very suseptable to damage from solvents.....which you will be using to layup. We have a dozen boatbuilders here....none use wood anymore for structure except for a couple of cold molders. Dosen't mean it's not good. Balsa or foam core over wood for me.
 

erikgreen

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Re: Foam Core VS Balsa Core - no stringers

I've been watching for a good cheap foam for a long time... but I'm frankly doubting the blue dow foam is any better than the others.

What's the specific type? I'll look up the specs.

Erik
 

mrdude

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Re: Foam Core VS Balsa Core - no stringers

dow has all the specs.. im not a sales person or in anyway represent dow. its just a good product and can be used in the boating industry... u can also do your own tests as i did. go to lowes , buy a sheet for $11 cut off a 1'x1' and submerge it in water for about a month or 2 u can try that with polyurethane foam too. the styro will have no measurable difference in weight than it did before submerging it. then try sandwiching a piece between plywood and drive your car over it or something. i am not a boat builder and have little experience compared to most of these guys here. but just because a boat builder may say it wont work dont mean it wont if hes never done it before.. there are new things entering the field every year. and if you have a little experience in engineering you can usually find a way to make something work.
 
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