Fiberglass prep work

4WinnsDave

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Sep 10, 2019
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Hi, I decided to replace the old carpet and seats in my '87 4Winns open bow, ski/fish boat and need some advice.
Once I got the carpet out, I found that there are several spots where the deck wood is bare and there are holes that appear to have happened at the time it was built. I want to lay another layer of glass, I figure that will solve the issues with the holes and bare spots. The question is: how clean does the fiberglass have to be (there's a lot of carpet adhesive that a wire brush won't remove) in order to get a good bond between the old and new layers?
Thanks!
 

matt167

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It has to be so clean, it's not even there, so that you can rebuild it all

Holes and bare spots means you have a rotted glasser
 

matt167

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rotted glasser, is most fiberglass boats that have not been restored and are at least 20 years old..

In '87, 4 Winns was a production boat slapped together as fast as they could because sales were going crazy. Boating was sort of reborn in the late 80's... There was shoddy workmanship and you might have found some. The workmanship led to water intrusion and then to rot ( holes )

Inspect your boat further, but it is likely to need new transom/ stringers/ deck entirely. A quick easy way to tell on an open bow is to close the center windshield. If it does not line up, the boat has structure issues. If it does line up it still probably does..

Polyester resin would need to be ground/ prepped for new glass to be stuck to it. You likely will be doing a lot of that grinding
 

4WinnsDave

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Sep 10, 2019
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Okay, thanks. Looks like the acronym is holding true... looks like I get to Break Out Another Thousand.
 

froggy1150

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A grand is a good start on equipment/ppe if you have never done thus before
 

Scott Danforth

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go to the restoration forum. look at the 4th sticky. read links 14, 15, 18, 2, 3, 4a, and 4b in their entirety. look at every video, picture, article, etc.

this is the required reading for fiberglass work. after that, the actual work is just hot, sweaty and itchy.

your boat being a 1987 is 34 years old. fiberglass boats are designed to last 15 years and be replaced or restored. so it has done well

average cost to replace floor, transom, stringers, foam, etc. is about $2500-$3500
 

tpenfield

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4WinnsDave . . . a 33 year old boat with holes in the flooring . . . not likely something that will just need a patch job.

Post some pictures so we can see what you are seeing . . . hard to image 'holes' happening at the time the boat was built :noidea:

Chances are that boat is rotted (of that era - 1980's - fiberglass boats are made of lots of wood)
 

4WinnsDave

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Sep 10, 2019
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Thanks Scott, Froggy & tpenfield,
this is my 1st boat, bought it hoping (but NOT expecting) it would last a while. Sorry, I don't have any close-up photos of the deck. The holes are: where the screws went through the base of the seats to hold them down; vents for the expanding foam and what l suspect are voids (caused by poor workmanship) that later broke through. I bought it for $2500 and just dropped $1500 last month on a new steering actuator. Since I already bought new seats & carpet last year, I figure I might as well finish the job the best I can and enjoy this PITA as long as I can
 

4WinnsDave

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Sep 10, 2019
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As much as I'd love to tear my boat apart and do it the right way, that's too much $ for me. I'd rather be using it than fixing it. I've already missed one summer when I replaced the gauges and last summer with the steering issue we weren't able to do any boating either. Anyway, Ted asked for photos, so here they are. Being the fiberglass novice (once I get some experience, maybe) that I am, I've reached out yesterday to a couple of guys who do fiberglass repair work to see how much they'd charge to do the work, waiting to hear back from them. In the mean-time, I'm working on removing the carpet glue, Goo-Off is working pretty well, (it's sure faster than a wire brush wheel on a drill) in case I end up doing the fiberglassing myself.
 

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4WinnsDave

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Scott, thanks for the "links" to the fiberglass-safety & info. I've done a bit of searching on Youtube for fiberglass how-to videos and repetition will only help.
 

GSPLures

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That floor definitely has rot. Boats start rotting bottom up so you probably are looking at stringers and transom. If the rest of the boat is in good shape and you like it, it is worth putting in the work. Even if you sell and upgrade your boat more than likely that one will need similar repairs unless you buy brand new, then by time the payments are done you will need to do the same work.
 

JASinIL2006

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Ugh... does not look good. I would not be out on that boat until I had a good look at some structure and the transom core. I am guessing the structure is pretty badly compromised.
 

Scott Danforth

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your boat needs $3500 worth of materials, PPE and incidentals on top of at a minimum 6-12 months of work to be usable.
 

4WinnsDave

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Scott, are you saying 6-12 months of work at 8 hrs a day or 8 hrs/week? The inside of the transom has no paint or gel-coat and looks like it's in pretty good shape, at least what I can see of it.
Any chance I could get someone to take pity on me & find a crew to give me an Extreme Boat Makeover? lol
 

tpenfield

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Usually it is assumed nights & weekends . . . so 8 hrs/week 200+ hours total.
 

matt167

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Your best bet is to offload it if your having reservations. It does not have very much going for it. 4 Winns was an OMC drive in that time, so it has an OMC ( obsolete marine company ) outdrive which is ... obsolete.. AND we know it's rotted.

The BEST boat you could have is a tin boat, and even better if it was an outboard as they are cheap to fix and if it needs replaced it's not a huge job.. If it needs a transom, it can be done in a weekend and the deck is not structural in a tin boat.
 

Scott Danforth

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Scott, are you saying 6-12 months of work at 8 hrs a day or 8 hrs/week? The inside of the transom has no paint or gel-coat and looks like it's in pretty good shape, at least what I can see of it.
Any chance I could get someone to take pity on me & find a crew to give me an Extreme Boat Makeover? lol

2 15 hour days on the weekend and 2-3 hours a night for about 2 months straight..... then you get burned out.... your wife yells at you, etc. you take up drinking, you swear at the boat....

you take a week break

by then the itching stopped, so you can start again....

expect to put in the following on a typical bow runner:

30-40 hours of carefully taking all the rigging out of the boat, marking the bags, taking pictures, measurements, etc. this is everything, all the interior, the drive, the motor, the rub rail, the glass, etc.
2 hours of mumbling to yourself wondering WTF you got yourself into
4-6 hours making a cradle for the hull
2-4 hours of un-caping the boat
2 more hours of soul searching
8 hours of carefully cutting out the floor, measuring the stringers, etc. removing foam
8 hours to verify your measurements, take pictures, sketch up what was there for you to re-make it as it was
8-12 hours of carefully trimming out the stringers to the floor and cutting out the transom inner skin
4-6 hours of removing the transom
24-40 hours of grinding fiberglass
2 hours of mumbling to yourself wondering WTF you got yourself into
acceptance that you are now neck deep in a project.
6-8 hours of rough-cutting your new stringer and transom wood
2 hours of cleanup
6-8 hours of finish carpentry to get it all to fit, including rounding all the corners over, etc.
2-4 hours of laminating various wood bits together
4 hours of wiping everything down with acetone
2 hours of PB'ing the transom in place
2 hours of swearing at the clamps and running around catching stuff that is oozing
2 hours of installing the stringers
8-10 hours of PB'ing everything
8 hours grinding something that went wrong and re-making something..... like the smoldering bucket of resin that has the brush stuck in it that is now stuck to the hull
2 hours of cleanup
2 hours of wiping it down with acetone
4 hours cutting tabbing
2 hours of wetting tabbing and laying it in place
1 hour of swearing at the tabbing because it keeps lifting off the wood
1 hour of grabbing the staple gun and in a fit of rage, stapling the resin soaked cloth in place
6 hours of grinding off all the nibbs and FUBARS
2 hours of cleanup
2 hours of wiping it down with acetone
2 hours final tabbing of the transom and stringers
2 hours of skinning the transom
2 hours of minor grinding
1 hour of cleanup
4 hours of fitting the floor panels
2 hours of wiping everything with acetone
2 hours of skinning the underside of the floor panels
2 hours of PB'ing and screwing the floor in place
4 hours cutting tabbing for the floor
2 hours of tabing the floor
1 hour of minor grinding
2 hours of cleanup
2 hours of sitting back with a beer making motor boat noises as your wife is calling the loony bin for you
1 hour drilling all the pour holes for the foam because you forgot to do this prior, even though you have made this mistake before
2 minutes mixing foam
5 minutes pouring foam
1 hour of cleaning your self up because you have foam stuck to your head
2 hours of cleaning up the areas you need to remove foam from
1 hour spot patching the pour holes
1 hour spot grinding
3 hours of cleaning
2 hours of wiping everything down with acetone
2 hours laying 2-3 layers on teh floor
2 hours making engine mounting blocks
2 hours pb'ing and tabbing the engine blocks
2 hours of minor grinding and clean up
1 hour of 3-4 layers of glass over the engine mounting blocks
3 hours cleaning everything
2 hours wiping everything down with acetone
2 hours applying gel coat to the bilge, transom and floor, using wax on the last layer
take a break for a week
8-12 hours installing new carpet
40-60 hours of cleaning things as you re-install everything

does not include multiple trips for supplies, or any exterior hull restoration.

this does not include the inevitable mistakes, such as cutting a hole in the hull, making a few resin trophies, etc. expect to add about 80 hours for mistakes and rework.

if you have to restore the exterior gel, add 300 hours

not trying to scare you away, just trying to point out the real effort needed on any boat over 15 years of age that needs a restoration
 

tpenfield

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4WinnsDave You can look at the start and complete dates in many of the restoration threads to get an idea of the time span. Partial restorations (i.e. 'repairs') seem to take about 4-6 months. Full restorations (where you are headed) seem to take 6-12 months. Life happens, so you won't be at it every evening or weekend, and frankly taking a break from it now and then helps thinking through challenges and retaining some sanity.

I did a partial restoration on my 'big-boy' boat, having to work through the winter months (snow/cold) and it took about 8 months start to finish.

Scott's listing is a good approximation of what to expect . . . :)
 
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