Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

[james082273]

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Sorry I did find where progressive pitch was discussed.<br /><br />I had no idea boat props had standards that they go by.<br /><br />I don't mean to turn this into a prop discussion but since were on the subject.... I know very little about props other than what the manufactures publish which is mostly bs, so the pitch (not angle) is the same from the front of the blade to the back of the blade? It's hard to describe what I am asking . I understood what you said about the pitch angle decreasing the farther you get from the hub since the farther from the hub the faster the blade is moving. What about along the other axis? front to back? That is where I thought the progressive pitch came into play. I guess I always thought of it this way, if you could cut a prop in half the front half would have less pitch than the back . I think the claim is better performance when the blades break the water surface and that makes some sence to me. The less pitch at the leading point of the prop could grab the water a better. I guess I missed the boat on that one !

 

[Tracy Coleman]

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

4 pages and growing, enough for eye strain!<br />Time to straighten out a few mis-quotes by Forky.<br />I said:<br />"The 40, 50, 60, 75, 90 all have a v-4 size gearcase. The 2 cylinder models have a lower gear ratio to crank a large prop-keeping prop pitch sizes in a more common range-same as Mercury and the rest, so a 140 I/O runs a similar pitch-in general-as 250 I/O. Otherwise you would have extreme pitch differences, easier to vary the gear ratio and use mostly similar props on average size-for the HP-boats."<br />You miss the word size? They all use the same prop<br />series started in 1968 when the first 3 cyl 55 hp was introduced and carried forward through the years in the larger-70 hp through 140 hp, primarily used by the V-4s ,88,90,100,110,112, 115, 120,125,130,135. This prop series is an OMC only size, no other manufacturer uses it, commonly known in the trade as the V-4 series.<br />Next your quote:<br />Huh? No other outboard, including Mercury, runs ratios this high. <br />Are you suggesting that the higher ratio is used in order for the smaller outboards to run on similar pitch props as the larger outboards? I hope not! <br />Gearing should be a reflection of the engine’s performance (torque, rpm, engine life, and efficiency), not a compromise for consolidating prop designs. <br />quote:<br />- so a 140 I/O runs a similar pitch-in general-as 250 I/O. Otherwise you would have extreme pitch differences<br />Huh? A 140 and a 250 running similar pitches? <br />Huh?-#1, We are talking pitch here, not ratios-but you didn't know about the Suzuki 90hp ratio of 2.59.<br />-The "I hope not!" quote-Hope doesn't have much to do with it. Since it is the practice of all the engine companies for average applications, it's a fact Jack.<br />Huh?-#2 "A 140hp I/O and 250I/O running similar pitches?"<br />Exactly! The average runabout with a 140hp-say 17-18' will use a 17" or 19" or in a lighter good running boat-say Stingray, a 21" or even a 23" may be needed. On the average 21'-22'+ runabout with a 250,260, the prop selection-due to the different gear ratio-will be the same, on average.<br />The "How many V-4's are 40 hp?" quote.<br /> I never said there were any, your missreading of my V-4 size prop fitting all the E-Tecs. You may assume that a prop that fits all the V-4's would <br />take a V-4 size gearcase, which is exactly what it is, whatever the ratio. The same as the 25" 90 hp has a V-6 size gearcase that turns the V-6 series props. As far as being popular size props, they have been a very popular prop line on OMC's<br />since 1968 on various 2, 3, 4 cylinder engines, mostly on the V-4's.<br />Time restraints being what they are, a little Christmas shopping now, more later.<br />Backfire

 

[james082273]

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

I understand the benifits of the "Bigfoot" type gearcase and propeller on the e-tec for pontoons but what about us other guys with smaller lighter boats that don't need the extra weight of the bigger package. Seems like they would give us an option of a different model like Merc and Yamaha. I guess that is where the money is....

 

[walleyehed]

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

They do........Johnson, 2-4-stroke, and Evinrude DFI....E-TEC is just 1 line in the series....

 

[jegervais]

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

"But I see we have no one stepping forward here. Imagine that."

Well, it was me, who posted the data, which I got from them. I've also contacted Bombardier and I received a similar reply. I'm not going to claim responsibility for posting incorrect data, other than I did make one typo, which I corrected (my fault). I too await their reply.<br /><br />

So apparently there are two different V4 gearcases, commercial and "Stingray", each having different ratios.

Is this an assumption or a vain attempt at a CYA? Be careful with assumptions... That statement is not correct. The commercial gearcase is used on (or in the case of a few discontinued models, "was" used on) the 45hp & 55hp 2-cylinder commercial models, the 65hp 3-cylinder commercial and the 60/70 3-cylinder recreational models. The only difference was the gear ratio (2.42:1) on the 3-cylinder models. It is not a V4 gearcase. The mounting bolt pattern is completely different, let alone the consideration of driveshaft & shift rod alignment. The midsections of the V4 and commercial engines are not the same, I would hate to have to resort to using the "M-word" again, but it's apparent seahorse, backfire & I are more knowledgeable about the Evinrude & Johnson product line. But, then again, some of us work on them every day.<br /><br />Like Backfire said, THEY USE THE SAME SIZE PROP, (which is correctly stated as the V4 series of props). Don't confuse the prop size, with the gearcase family. <br /><br />

And none of us really know where the data came from at this point or if it's legitimate. We may not be getting the data correctly or in its entirety. I think that was Bombardier's concern, along with the fact one of their dealers may have posted it.

I guess we will all find out. Soon I hope. Shame on me for trying to help.

 

[seahorse5]

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

. <br />Jon boater,<br /><br />Check out my post in the Gear Ratio Info. thread that was started by PAkev on Dec. 9. That might help answer your question and where to look for more information.

 

[james082273]

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Walleyehed,<br /><br />Sorry I wasn't clear. I meant offer an Evinrude E-Tec 40hp with the normal 3.5 inch gear case so the engine doesn't weigh 50lbs more than it should. I had considered one for my boat but at the 40hp level the E-Tec is just too heavy. Maybe it is all the FI parts that make it heavy??

 

[Forktail]

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

You guys have your panties in such a wad over this that it's become hilarious. <br /><br />Backfire's still so hung up on the gear case size thing that he's lost all ability to make a readable post. He's buried himself so far down I hate to even go there.<br /><br />John admits to posting the data, but still won't say what dealership he works for. He gloated over the data he posted, not knowing it didn't jive. Now he's unwilling to take responsibilty for it.<br /><br />Then we have seahorse the salesman. Our own E-Tech media master. Supports his dealer peers with lots of "ATTABOYS". Justifies everything with "finagle factors" and "rules of thumb".<br /><br />All three are either dealers, or work for dealers. All three search frantically through my wording to try to find fault, while failing to provide any technical explanation or answer the real questions. Their misinformation and lack of practical knowledge is covered up by rhetoric and semantics. They argue with information right out of propping design manuals, and even information direct from Bombardier. No fact. Just denial.<br /><br />Truly amazing.

 

[walleyehed]

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Jon Boater, wish I knew why they were (are) heavier....I have a feeling we will find out at some point. Guess I misunderstood your previous question...sorry 'bout that!<br />I find this particular topic VERY interesting just because of the BUZZ it's creating....don't see anyone going nuts over "project-X"......There are alot of loyal fans of OMC that may say they are buying others, but they can't help but portray the "let me see" attitude. <br />I think the next 2 years will show some of the best technology "Leaps" we've ever seen, and it IS going to be interesting!!!

 

[Forktail]

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Just a couple of things Backfire (without stripping you of all dignity)….<br /><br />The 40, 50, 60, 75, and 90 E-Techs do not “all” have a V-4 size gearcase. The 90 HP 25” shaft has a V6 “Offshore” gearcase with a 2.27 ratio. You are refusing to acknowledge your mistake. And they don’t all use the same prop. The 90 HP 25” shaft uses V-6 props. You are failing to acknowledge that too. The information is straight from Bombardier. <br /><br />I am well aware of Suzuki’s 2.59 ratios. The ratio of the E-Tech’s we were talking about is 2.67. 2.67 is a higher ratio (lower gearing) than a 2.59 ratio. No other outboard runs ratios this high. Not Suzuki, not Mercury, nodda, zip, zilch. And that was my interest. <br /><br />Gear ratios are torque multipliers and rpm reducers. Again, gearing should be a reflection of the engine’s performance (torque, rpm, engine life, and efficiency), not a compromise for consolidating modular prop designs. An engine’s torque and rpm performance dictate its gear ratio. Not the opposite. Propping is a fine tuning device for various applications that the engine might encounter, so it can operate within its design parameters.<br /><br />Under your theory all outboards could run on the same size prop, as long as gearing was varied accordingly. But we know this won’t work because some engines would have too little or too much power, operating at different rpm.<br /><br />Backfire, you can not deny that the extremely high 2.67 ratio is odd. You can’t find another outboard similar. Heck, most high-thrust models don’t even do that, and they have a specialized application. There is no denying that this high ratio puts propping at the far end of the high torque/thrust scale, but it also indicates very slow prop speeds.<br /><br />I suggest you quit trying to justify the E-tech and defend its performance data. It makes you look rediculous. If they are as good and as fast as you say, then you shouldn't have any problem selling them. They will sell themselves.

 

[Forktail]

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Is this an assumption or a vain attempt at a CYA?

LMAO. Actually it is directly from Bombardier. Was it you that suggested I call them to get the proper information? LMAO <br /><br />

Be careful with assumptions... That statement is not correct. The commercial gearcase is used on (or in the case of a few discontinued models, "was" used on) the 45hp & 55hp 2-cylinder commercial models, the 65hp 3-cylinder commercial and the 60/70 3-cylinder recreational models. The only difference was the gear ratio (2.42:1) on the 3-cylinder models. It is not a V4 gearcase. The mounting bolt pattern is completely different, let alone the consideration of driveshaft & shift rod alignment. The midsections of the V4 and commercial engines are not the same

This is directly from Bombardier. But whatever you say John. <br /><br />“Below is a better explanation to your first inquiry (about gear cases). Hopefully it is better described for you.<br /><br />*The 40 through 60 hp (2 cylinder, 20 inch shaft model) E-TEC outboards use our commercial series gearcase with a 2.67:1 gear ratio. They utilize our existing line of aluminum and stainless steel V4 propellers, available from 9 inch to 24 inch pitch.<br /><br />*The 75 through 90 hp (3 cylinder, 20 inch shaft model) E-TEC outboards use our “Stingray” V4 gearcase with a 2.0:1 gear ratio. They utilize our existing line of aluminum and stainless steel V4 propellers, available from 9 inch to 24 inch pitch.<br /><br />*The 90 hp (3 cylinder, 25 inch shaft model) E-TEC outboard uses our “Offshore” V6 gearcase with a 2.27:1 gear ratio. Because of the larger diameter of this gearcase, they utilize our existing line of aluminum and stainless steel V6 propellers, available from 13 inch to 23 inch pitch.”<br /><br />John, I suggest you call Bombardier if you disagree. You have the number. LMAO<br /><br />

I would hate to have to resort to using the "M-word" again, but it's apparent seahorse, backfire & I are more knowledgeable about the Evinrude & Johnson product line. But, then again, some of us work on them every day.

Talking about how knowledgeable you are is much different than actually showing us. <br /><br />Please don’t make me list all the blunders you three stooges have made throughout this discussion. This thread is long enough. If you were so confident about your knowledge you wouldn’t be dragging this discussion out. You’d at least be proving your point. I think you’re still here because you’re learning. Nothing wrong with that, but for Pete’s sake, get off the E-TEC crusade! Put your salesman ego away.<br /><br />Anyhow, this isn't about knowledge Mr. E-TEC. It's about correct information. And if you were so knowledgeable, you wouldn't have left it up to me to find a problem with your data. <br /><br />

Don't confuse the prop size, with the gearcase family.

Don’t flatter yourself John. No confusion here. Never was. When you guys go off on these unfounded tangents, it cracks me up. <br /><br />

Shame on me for trying to help.

Oh please. You posted that data to boast about the E-TEC. It backfired on you, and now we’re supposed to feel sorry for you? If you wanted to help, you’d post a link to that data. And you would fess up the name of your dealership.

 

[jegervais]

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

The 40 through 60 hp (2 cylinder, 20 inch shaft model) E-TEC outboards use our commercial series gearcase with a 2.67:1 gear ratio. They utilize our existing line of aluminum and stainless steel V4 propellers, available from 9 inch to 24 inch pitch.

Where in that statement does it say "V4"??<br /><br />

Most manufacturers produce props that meet the International ISO propeller standards.<br /><br />These standards range in accuracy. "S" is considered a very high accuracy prop, with the pitch being within +-0.5%. "Class I" is a high accuracy prop with a pitch in the +-.75% range. "Class II" is medium accuracy with a pitch in the +-1% range. And "Class III" is wide tolerance in the +-3% range.

Would that just happen to be ISO standard 484/2?<br /><br />You realize of course that is the standard for propellers that range from .8 meter to 2.5 meter.<br /><br />For anyone who may be "metrically challenged", that works out to a diameter range from approximately 31.5 inches to 98.43 inches. <br /><br />How would you like to handle that prop guys! Holy cow what an outboard that prop must fit, it's probably a Honda! (no offense Honda folks, I couldn't resist...

 

[gss036]

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Back up the post, there was a discussion inserted about First Protection Corporation providing the extended service contract for the extra years. I have had dealings with them on a blown Mercury engine years ago. The adjustor they assigned to inspect the engine spent 4 hours in the shop going through the engine trying to find reason not to have to pay for the blown power head. The shop finally got tired of the guy and asked him to leave. READ the super small print at the bottom of the agreement, the owner pays all the taxes on any repair they provide. I post this just to change the tone of the ROPE, it is getting hard to follow with all the ego's getting in the way.

 

[walleyehed]

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

gss036, no insult intended here, but who on this board would not gladly pay the 160.00 tax vs. the 2000.00 repair bill??????? (based on 8% tax)

 

[seahorse5]

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Forktail,<br /><br />That is interesting that you brought up an ISO standard that does not apply to outboard propellers. Were you reading literature about the PropScan tool from Australia or does your buddy in the prop shop you talked about have one? If he does, perhaps you can ask him to check the blades on the 2 different styles of 15" SST props and see what that machine says for average pitch.

 

[gss036]

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Wallyhead, no insult taken. I hear what you are saying. My point was mainly that the shop and I both thought they were pretty lowball in going through a box of parts trying to find a way to keep from paying. It was kind of easy to see the hole in the block where the rod came through. The engine was only 13 months/140 hours and of course Mercury said sorry you are out of warranty. Mercury should have paid as it looked like someone forgot to put a lock nut on the end of the rod bearing cap that was embedded in the block.

 

[walleyehed]

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

That's my luck.......2 days after.....it breaks.

 

[jegervais]

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Hey seahorse, that's a pretty nice lookin' piece of machinery. Here's a link to another one.<br /><br /> http://www.miwheel.com/MIWheel/pdf/MRI03.pdf <br /><br />Has a list of repair locations & manufacturers included at the end too.

 

[Forktail]

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Where in that statement does it say "V4"??

John, you continue to argue semantics. <br /><br />Whether its a V-4 gearcase, a gearcase that uses V-4 props, a V-4 sized gearcase, a gearcase family, a gearcase series, a commercial gearcase that uses a V-4 prop, a V-4, or any combination, mix, match, and form thereof....it is semantics. Pure rhetoric. Distraction.<br /><br />The issue was about the extremely high gear ratio of 2.67. Not types of gearcases! You will not acknowledge that. Instead you have simply tried to find error in what I have posted by twisting, misinterpreting, and misrepresenting my words. You have refused to recognize that I've only posted information directly from Bombardier.<br /><br />You know, what cracks me up John is that it was you and Backfire who were arguing about gearcases. Not me. This will be the forth time dating back two entire pages that I've said I could care less about gearcase lingo. It has nothing to do with the interest in the high gear ratio.<br /><br />Since the gearcase "thing" seems to be such an issue to you, maybe you could tell us why? Are you just trying to portray all that "knowledge" you boast about, or is there a real constructive reason? Is your goal to read my past posts with such a fine-toothed comb that you can use your rhetoric and semantics to find issue? Is it an ego thing John? Are you one of those "know-it-all" dealers? <br /><br />Because it can't be that you want correct information given out here. Otherwise you would be posting it, like I have by using exact word-for-word information from Bombardier.<br /><br />

Would that just happen to be ISO standard 484/2?

Not necessarily. There are many ISO standards used in manufacturing propellers. ISO 484-2 is simply one that lists the specifications and tolerances.<br /><br />

You realize of course that is the standard for propellers that range from .8 meter to 2.5 meter.

So? It doesn’t mean that these standards aren’t used and adopted by the industry for smaller propellers! <br /><br />There are no “official” standards set or enforced in the outboard prop industry, so the ISO standards have been adopted by many propeller manufacturers. Aftermarketers and repair shops also use the ISO standards. Computer aided design, better manufacturing technology, and better testing and measuring equipment available help them to do this.<br /><br />”Solas propellers are produced under a strict ISO 9002 quality assurance system. From the raw material to the final product, all the specifications are checked to ensure a consistent high quality production.”<br /><br />”Enhanced Propeller Standard is used in the repair and modification of performance propellers and has been developed by experts in the field to further enhance the well respected ISO 484 Standard.”<br /><br />”helping manufacturers produce quality propellers meeting industry ISO quality standards” <br /><br />”Prop Scan EPS can measure propellers down to a 2" diameter.”<br /><br />John, your attempts to shoot me down have failed horribly. It’s making you look quite desperate and ridiculous. You’re distracting from the topic here, which ironically is the data you posted. You’re ignoring my points. And you’re obviously avoiding answering questions.<br /><br />You are providing no information, facts, help, or constructive solution to this thread. Your goal here is obviously to show your ego complex.<br /><br />What’s the name of your dealership?

 

[JB]

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

This has turned into a nasty, nit picking ego contest over trivia. <br /><br />Nobody has learned anything except what hostile posting can raise in the way of hostile responses for the last hundred posts at least.<br /><br />End of discussion.