Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

seahorse5 · Dec 9, 2003

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Forktail wrote on Nov 25: Even under perfect conditions (impossible) with zero prop slip (impossible), there is no physical way an outboard running 5500 RPM with a 2:1 gear ratio and a 15 pitch prop can do 39.7 mph. Forktail wrote on Dec 7: So let me see you say it seahorse..."The data doesn't jive" ---------------------------------------- Forktail, Ever since you posted your calculations, I agreed with you that the figures didn't jive, and said so in three different posts. seahorse: Nov 25 Your calculations are correct, but if that was a 17" prop, the speed would be right in the ballpark taking into account average slippage. Perhaps it was typo. seahorse: Nov.25 All in all, the proof is on the water, but this may shed some light as to why theory and reality are sometimes a ways apart (concerning props, that is). seahorse: Dec 6 I always agreed with Forktail that the one performance test did not compute using a 15" prop. I assumed that it was a misprint that traveled "up the line" somewhere. Forktail, Since you are having a problem contacting Bombardier, what number did you call and who did you talk to? The main number is 847-689-6200 and customer service is 847-689-7090. The individual I contacted is in a position to check out the performance specs and will get back to me. I will share what he or she says with the board

Forktail · Dec 9, 2003

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

seahorse, please dont flatter yourself. You cant agree with me by using buts and what ifs. Youve come up with nothing but excuses to justify the performance info. You appear to be in denial. 1. First, it had to be the prop. You went as far as assuming the 15 pitch prop was really a 17 pitch, even after the propping was double checked and corrected once!.... "but if that was a 17" prop, the speed would be right in the ballpark taking into account average slippage." 2. Heck, you can even make the performance data work by changing the parameters of the test.... "That would make the prop a 16" and with around 5% slippage, the posted figures are close." 3. Then it had to be a typo.... "Perhaps it was typo." 4. Next, surely the only real proof would be on the water (totally ignoring the fact the results would be even worse).... "the proof is on the water, but this may shed some light as to why theory and reality are sometimes a ways apart" 5. Then it was a misprint.... "I assumed that it was a misprint that traveled "up the line" somewhere." You even went as far as using terms like finagle factor and rules of thumb to justify the performance report. In your previous argument about oil changes, you added verbiage to Yamahas maintenance guide that didnt exist, just so you could be right. You argued about Yamahas weights calling them a misprint, failing to take into account the shaft length differences. You never acknowledged that one either. You argued about gear ratios to a point of such oblivion that you had to say you were just funn. Mysteriously, youve totally ignored the problems with the 40 HP E-Tech performance data. No acknowledgement. You have done everything but face the fact that these performance results might be a little exaggerated for marketing hype.

The individual I contacted is in a position to check out the performance specs and will get back to me.

One more time...exactly who did you contact (name and number). Seahorse, youve been one big, bias sales pitch through this whole thread. You're bleeding E-Tech salesman.

seahorse5 · Dec 9, 2003

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Forktail, You sound like a little boy throwing a temper tantrum in the schoolyard! I always keep my word and will get back with you when I find out what Bombardier says.

gss036 · Dec 9, 2003

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

I saw a short post on SeaCraft forum that the rumors are flying about 7 year warranty is back for Evenrudes, anyone know about this? We seem to have a lot of knowledge involved in this string. 12-10-03 Saw another post on Hull Truth saying the warranty would start 1-1-04.

walleyehed · Dec 9, 2003

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

We seem to have a lot of knowledge involved in this string.

You're right.....it has passed the thread stage, and has become officially a string!!

Good info though.....can't help but pay attention-learning to be done here (on my part).

seahorse5 · Dec 9, 2003

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Yep, now we we have gone from a thread, to a string, and are approaching a rope. The extended warranty program, up to 7 years on Evinrudes and 5 years on Johnsons, is now available or you may take the rebate that is based on $4 per horsepower. This applies to 40hp and above new 2003 and 2004 motors. Check with an authorized dealer as there are some limitations and participation requirements, as in any promotion. It starts 12-27-03 and ends on 4-15-04.

Forktail · Dec 10, 2003

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Spoken like a true salesman.

backdraft · Dec 10, 2003

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Hope that applies to the 50 4 stroke Johnson as I have been lusting after one. nevjb

Forktail · Dec 10, 2003

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Bombardier would like to know what dealer provided the performance report data here (they want to make sure his information is complete and accurate).

Trent · Dec 10, 2003

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

BillP · Dec 10, 2003

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Forktail...the suspense is killing me. What did Bomb say was wrong...or right...or wrong...or right? Don't tell me it was really a 19 pitch.

Tracy Coleman · Dec 10, 2003

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Submitted by GGG Jr. from TEXAS on 12/10/03 11:11:00 PM and it is all mine.......... You are looking at a balanced, blueprinted , tricked and tweaked Boger 25 Trophy. Now this prop started life as a factory fresh 25 Trophy from jacos about 6 weeks ago. After testing and baseline numbers, this art piece went on a trip to Texarkana. After measurement, it came in at 26.5, 28,27 and 26.5 for a rough 27 average (on a 25 )......HMMM, could it be that factory props are not that accurate? Could it be that our slip numbers are generally much higher due to inconsistent manufac.? Well this bad boy now has a custom progression that will remain our little secret.....I will say that the prop would now be called a 26 Trophy, not a 25 that actually measures 27. Picture of a Merc Trophy 4 blade may not come through. I just don't know what to think about a situation like this, has anybody ever heard of such a thing? Backfire

Tracy Coleman · Dec 10, 2003

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

To save the trouble of going to the Evinrude website: BOMBARDIER RECREATIONAL PRODUCTS UNVEILS INDUSTRY'S BEST BOAT SHOW PROMOTION FOR EVINRUDE AND JOHNSON OUTBOARDS Outstanding Promotion Offers Industry's Only 7-Years of Engine Protection STURTEVANT, WIS., December 10, 2003 - The 2004 boat show season promises to be the best ever for consumers. With today's announcement, Bombardier Recreational Products will offer the industry's best promotional program for outboard engines. A total of seven years engine protection or $4 per horsepower will be offered on every new and unused 2003 and 2004 Evinrude® outboard engine. Five years of protection or $4 per horsepower is offered for new and unused 2003 and 2004 Johnson® outboards 40 hp and higher. This includes both Johnson 4-stroke and carbureted 2-stroke models. This promotion reinforces Bombardier Recreational Products' world-class reputation for durability, quality and reliability, and comes on the heels of Evinrude outboard engines receiving "Highest in Customer Satisfaction with 2-Stroke Engines" in the J.D. Power and Associates 2003 Marine Engine Competitive Information StudySM. Bombardier Recreational Products is sending a strong message to the industry that it intends to stand by its commitment to excellence. "We're very confident in the durability, quality and reliability of our engines," said Roch Lambert, vice president and general manager of Boats and Outboard Engines Division. "This promotion is the best in the industry and is intended to ensure that our customers can boat with confidence because their outboard engine is backed by Bombardier Recreational Products. This coverage is even better than many automobile companies offer." Details include: Evinrude: A total of 7-years coverage (4-year extended protection plan) or choice of $4/hp consumer rebate Johnson 4-stroke: A total of 5-years coverage (2-year extended protection plan) or choice of $4/hp consumer rebate Johnson 2-stroke: a total of 5-years coverage (3-year extended protection plan) or choice of $4/hp consumer rebate The promotion is only offered in the Continental U.S. and Canada on consumer purchases between December 27, 2003 and April 15, 2004. To redeem the offer, consumers must visit a participating Evinrude and Johnson dealer (a list of participating dealers is available at www.evinrude.com or www.johnson.com after December 27, 2003). Consumers can select from the following options: An outboard extended protection plan (in addition to the standard limited warranty); Credit toward the purchase of a qualified outboard; or A rebate check to be sent directly to the consumer. Only new unused and never previously registered MY 2003 and MY 2004 outboards sold in North America for recreational use qualify. Delivery on ordered units must be taken by May 31, 2004. For details, see official promotion rules available at participating dealers and on the Evinrude and Johnson websites. Bombardier Recreational Products designs, develops, builds, distributes and markets utility vehicles, Rotax engines and karts, Ski Doo® and Lynx® snowmobiles, Bombardier* ATVs, Sea Doo® watercraft and sport boats, Johnson® and Evinrude® outboard engines, as well as Evinrude direct injection and Evinrude E TEC technologies. Bombardier Inc., a diversified manufacturing and services company, is a world-leading manufacturer of business jets, regional aircraft, rail transportation equipment and motorized recreational products. It also provides financial services and asset management in business areas aligned with its core expertise. Headquartered in Montréal, Canada, the Corporation has a workforce of some 75,000 people and manufacturing facilities in 25 countries throughout the Americas, Europe and Asia-Pacific. Its revenues for the fiscal year ended Jan. 31, 2003 stood at $23.7 billion Cdn. Bombardier shares are traded on the Toronto, Brussels and Frankfurt stock exchanges (BBD, BOM and BBDd.F). *, ®, TM Trademarks of Bombardier Inc. or its subsidiaries. The protection offer consist of the standard Bombardier limited warranty plus the FPC Premium Marine extended coverage, offered by First Protection Corporation, the marine industry's leading extended service plan provider. SM J.D. Power and Associates 2003 Marine Engine Competitive Information Study. Study based on responses from a total of 10,734 owners of 2002 and early 2003 model-year boats. www.jdpower.com For information: David Thompson Director of Global Communications Boats and Outboard Engines (262) 884-5399 david.thompson@recreation.bombardier.com Backfire

Forktail · Dec 10, 2003

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

What are you saying Backfire?

Are you suggesting that Bombardier's 15 pitch on the 75 HP was not a 15 pitch, and the 17 pitch on the 40 hp HP was not a 17 pitch? Gee, wouldn't that reinforce what I've been saying here all along...that something doesn't jive? Regardless, if this was the case, the pitch is still way off. And why would they publish comparison data using a prop that really wasn't what they said it was? Part of field engineers doing tests is making sure the equipment is reflected accurately in the published data.

Could it be that our slip numbers are generally much higher due to inconsistent manufac.

If Bombardier is stamping props with a lower pitch number than they really are, then they would have the effect of less slip. And a good comparison wouldn't really exist.

Forktail · Dec 10, 2003

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Hey Bill. Bombardier has been very professional and prompt in responding to me. I finally found someone there who is trying to help me. I'm impressed with their service. Much like my other Bombardier product service. But as of yet, they have no explanation for the data. They continue to review the purported performance reports given to them and they are checking with their propeller engineers. They notified me that they received a similar request about the same purported performance report from one of their dealers. Probably seahorse. I think we'll have some answers within a couple of days. They should forward it to me (or seahorse) by then. I'm not sure how they'll word it though. They are following this thread. I find that impressive as well. And they would like to know who the data came from so they can assure it is correct. But I see we have no one stepping forward here. Imagine that. They did finally clear up the gear case issue for me.... The 40-60 HP E-Techs get the commercial series gearcase with the 2.67 ratio. They can use the V4 props. The 75-90 HP E-Techs get the "Stingray" V4 gearcase with the 2.0 ratio. They also use the V4 props. So apparently there are two different V4 gearcases, commercial and "Stingray", each having different ratios. The 90 HP E-Tech in the 25" shaft gets the "Offshore" V6 gearcase with a 2.27 ratio. They use the V6 props. Pretty much what I posted before. I am 100% confident that there is a problem with the data. The simple math shows that, and mistakes happen. But it's going to take a good explanation to make all the bragging and boasting going on here legitimate.

Serious Business · Dec 10, 2003

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

I've enjoyed following this thread, the debates, and all the information, both good and bad, on engines and props. This site is intended to educate and this thread has certainly educated me. You've got me motivated. I've ended up looking up definitions, performing calculations and getting to know much more about the outboard on my boat. My thanks to all the posters for raising my interest and for continuing the discussion with good humor. I'm a researcher by profession and I have an appreciation for getting down to actual fact, as many posters have also said in this thread. This is one reason why I appreciate engineers, and Forktail's attitude. The numbers have to work out. If they don't, you have to know why. It is clear to me that the numbers for E-TECH don't work. The data is flawed. You can't be better than perfection. You can generate all the hypotheses why they don't work or how they could work, but what is needed is "valid information" and this is what remains questionable. That's why it's good to hear that Bombardier is monitoring this thread and is highly responsive. I was wondering what was taking them so long to come to the table. With the good reputation many of you have ascribed to them, it is hard for me to believe they would intentionally put out erroneous information in the name of marketing hype. The calculations are not difficult and there are plenty of technicians, engineers and marine experts around to expose them to a good dose of criticism for such foolishness. That would be a serious blow to their credibility. Bombardier looks to have a much more intelligent approach to marketing their products than to intentionally mislead. One more thing. When I'm out fishing in the salt 50 miles from shore, I want a captain who has spent years on the water, who knows his engines down to the hair in a gnat's eyebrow, someone who is picky, hard-headed and has to see it proven to believe it---someone who changes the oil and also does the calculations. That's the captain I would look for. Forktail, I'd be glad to be on one of your boats anytime.

Forktail · Dec 11, 2003

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

I was wondering what was taking them so long to come to the table. With the good reputation many of you have ascribed to them, it is hard for me to believe they would intentionally put out erroneous information in the name of marketing hype.

We can't really expect Bombardier to monitor these types of threads and put out all the fires on the internet. They'd go crazy.

And none of us really know where the data came from at this point or if it's legitimate. We may not be getting the data correctly or in its entirety. I think that was Bombardier's concern, along with the fact one of their dealers may have posted it. I really don't care about all that. I just want to know what makes a 40 HP and 75 HP E-Tech go faster than it can. Nobody's explained that yet. SB, the boat leaves at 5 bells. Lunch is on you, bait is on me.

james082273 · Dec 11, 2003

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

I don't want to get in the middle of this and I may have missed some points that have been made because there are so many posts...but anyway... aren't most descent props progressively pitched? Meaning if you could take a prop and screw it into a piece of wood it would not go because it relies on a certain amount of slip somewhere on the blade surface. The pitch that is stamped on the hub is only a "so called" average of the blade. Some manufactures maybe conservative about their claimed pitch and some may be over doing it. Just a thought and isn't meant to contradict anything

!

BillP · Dec 11, 2003

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

I gotta chime in again. I don't really think anyone is trying to prove a 15P prop will make more than 100%. It seems to me there are just explainations on why the test numbers and math don't match. Just like most experienced watermen, hard heads prevail on the waterfront and are usually developed from experience.

Forktail · Dec 11, 2003

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Yes Jon, we've discussed this. Most modern props do have a progressive pitch angle where the geometry of the prop at the root or hub is generally much different than at the trailing edge. But pitch angle and pitch are not one in the same. Pitch is still a representation of the distance the prop can move forward in one revolution, with zero slip. Pitch can use any combination or type of pitch angle and blade geometry to do this. Most manufacturers produce props that meet the International ISO propeller standards. These standards range in accuracy. "S" is considered a very high accuracy prop, with the pitch being within +-0.5%. "Class I" is a high accuracy prop with a pitch in the +-.75% range. "Class II" is medium accuracy with a pitch in the +-1% range. And "Class III" is wide tolerance in the +-3% range. With today's technology, most manufacturers are able to produce and supply Class I propellers for their outboards. Even if the E-Tech had a A "S" grade prop, it would not achieve those speeds. Even a lowly class III prop at a +3% pitch difference would not change the 15 pitch enough to achieve those speeds. If Bombardier is "over doing it" with their claimed prop pitches then I will have made my point that the data doesn't jive. It amazes me how everyone is so stuck on the prop pitch. That is only one parameter to the data. It could be possible that the speed data was taken from an inaccurate speedometer which had high tolerances, instead of radar. The tachometer could also have high tolerances. And maybe, in the name of competition, those tolerances somehow all added up in favor of the E-Tech. Remember, Bombardier's field engineers ran these tests.

Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

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