Ethanol Gas

mmainelli

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Jan 4, 2006
Messages
44
Anybody have any negative experiences with 90/10 ethanol gas? I'm hearing some carbs need re-jetting, gas lines failing, don't add alcohol additives, loss of rpm (can't get to WOT), etc.
 

KRS

Banned
Joined
May 15, 2004
Messages
2,383
Re: Ethanol Gas

Ethanol is corrosive.<br /><br />Unless the tank/lines/carb-or-injectors are made for it... it eats 'em up.
 

RubberFrog

Rear Admiral
Joined
Apr 9, 2005
Messages
4,268
Re: Ethanol Gas

Lot's of people have been running 10% for years with no side effects. Sure, you're hoses may not last as long but you're boat isn't going to melt or blow up. Ethanol contains less btu's per volume so you may have some loss of power.<br /><br />My truck runs better on nonethanol 87 than it does on 10% super.
 

craze1cars

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Dec 26, 2004
Messages
1,822
Re: Ethanol Gas

How old is your boat? My 1992 Mercruiser owner's manual specifically addresses 10% ethanol....it basically says there's no problem with it. An older boat may not be quite as willing to ingest it without having corrosion problems with some of the rubbers & plastics in the fuel system. The cutoff for having parts possibly incompatable with Ethanol is somewere around 1990. About that time the newer materials were becoming widely used and most everything produced in the 90's and later could easily tolerate the corrosiveness of Ethanol.<br /><br />But having said that, the stations around my home here in the midwest farm country have been blending 10% ethanol in ALL their gas for the past 15 years or so. It's all I ever buy.<br /><br />And every engine I run has had absolutely NO problems with it, even my vintage 1970's motors on rototillers, mowers, 2 and 4 stroke motors, my high compression 1968 Firebird 400, and all my newer model cars and trucks. I'll restate they've all been running 10% Ethanol almost exclusively for about 15 years...and some of this equipment is stored with the fuel in the tank and only run once or twice a year. I do use Sta-bil in those pieces.<br /><br />So based on that, I feel it's far less harmful to fuel systems than many alarmists seem to make it out to be.<br /><br />Want something more official? Mercury wrote an essay about it. And they specifically mention 1990 as a changeover year as well:<br /> http://www.mercurymarine.com/ethanol2
 

Scaaty

Vice Admiral
Joined
May 31, 2004
Messages
5,180
Re: Ethanol Gas

Originally posted by craze1cars:<br />[QB]<br /> My 1992 Mercruiser owner's manual specifically addresses 10% ethanol....it basically says there's no problem with it. <br /> No problem? This is straight off the site..<br /> When gasoline with ethanol is used for the first time after a fuel changeover from MTBE, the tank must be completely dry prior to introduction of gasoline with ethanol. Otherwise, phase separation could occur that could cause filter plugging or damage to the engine. If an engine is a 1990 or older model frequent inspections of all fuel-system components are advised to identify any signs of leakage, softening, hardening, swelling or corrosion. If any sign of leakage or deterioration is observed, replacement of the affected components is required before further operation. <br />Do you think they feel like coming over and helping me replace my tanks in 2 boats with big old built-in tanks when it eats through and soaks the hull? This aint some silly rubber hose issue.<br />Remember all the delays because off this a bit ago at the Majors? Had to clean and dry THEIR tanks. I see a lot of problems ahead.<br />And read the section about Phase separation. <br />A link again mercurymarine.com/ethanol <br />The probable damage done will far exceed any cost benefit from this, another government fiasco
 

craze1cars

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Dec 26, 2004
Messages
1,822
Re: Ethanol Gas

My comment was based on this simple quote:<br /><br />"Will the use of fuels containing ethanol void my engine warranty? <br /><br />Fuels containing up to 10 percent ethanol are considered acceptable for use in Mercury engines."<br /><br /><br />The section you quote is specifically referring to the 1990 cut-off. And of course Mercury had no idea what kind of fuel tank is in your boat (they don't make their own fuel tanks), so they warn you to check the material it's made of, especially pre 1990. So obviously if you have pre-1990 tanks, especially fiberglass, I fully acknowledge you may have a problem with it. <br /><br />Based on what they write, phase separation is only an issue if a.) you mix with mtbe gas (highly unlikely as it's extremely rare, being phased out country wide), and b.) if you leave gas in your tank for an extremely long tiem and allow it to soak up an excessive amount of moisture so it becomes saturated (a maintenance and proper storage issue, not a regular use issue.)<br /><br />And based on my 15 year unscientificly documented experience with using 10% ethanol almost exclusively in my 1968 thru 2005 vehicles, so far I can confidently state that phase separation has not occured, nor has excessive corrision.<br /><br />If you don't want to use ethanol blends, I certainly respect that. I was just sharing my expeirence. But good luck in your search for pure gasoline....most states do NOT have any requirement that ethanol content be disclosed at the pump (a few do require it, and some gas marketers voluntarily put the sticker on the pump regardless). But I wouldn't be surprised if you've been running a lot of ethanol blends over the years and had absolutely no idea. And I assume you probably had no problem. Big name brands are no different. Here in Indiana about 80% of the gas sold at BP stations for instance, is a 10% ethanol blend. And they rarely put the sticker on the pump. BP's site mentions the content of ethanol in much of their "Amoco Ultimate" premium gasoline...Shell's web site freely states that they are the largest blender of oxygenated fuels in the United States.<br /><br />Do some simple internet searches, like "ethanol in (insert your favorite station here) gasoline" and you might be stunned to find out how widespread it is used. Many states and metropolitan areas with pollution controls REQUIRE that all gasoline contain 10% ethanol, and have for years. There it's actually illegal to sell non-ethanol blends. Here's a quote from Chevron's site about labeling ethanol at the pump:<br /><br />"The information available to the retail consumer about the oxygenate composition of the gasoline varies. There is no federal labeling regulation; this is an area controlled by state regulations. Some states require dispenser labels for oxygenated gasolines in wintertime CO nonattainment areas and RFG gasolines. A typical label reads: The gasoline dispensed from this pump is oxygenated and will reduce carbon monoxide pollution from motor vehicles. Some labels, like this one, do not provide any information on which oxygenate(s) the blend contains; others do. Few, if any, states require labeling for gasolines containing low levels of ethers added to increase octane. A national association of state weights-and-measures agencies responsible for dispenser calibration and labeling issued a revised standard guideline for dispenser labeling in 1996. Several states recently have dropped ethanol labeling requirements and some are now requiring labeling for MTBE."<br /><br />Out of curiosity, has anyone on this site ever had or heard of a documented fuel system failure that could be directly attributed to the use 10% ethanol blends? And NOT just attributed to old age, maintenance, or improper storage?<br /><br />As a side note, I'm not for or against ethanol blends in any way. I just happen to be deeply entrenched in the automotive industry and have a fair bit of knowledge and experience with it. Just sharing what I know, not trying to sway anyone any particular direction. I just honestly have come to the conclusion for myself that 10% blends are essentially harmless to run in most anything...and I have found VERY little documented proof to the contrary, beyond the warnings of POSSIBLE problems, which are just about everywhere you look and in my opinion likely the result of today's lawyer-happy society, just in case there happens to be one failure...I have never seen any of the warnings come to fruition however. And the stuff is just about everywhere, and most people don't even realize they've been burning it for years.
 

rodbolt

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
20,066
Re: Ethanol Gas

phase seperation has nothing to do with MTBE and everything to do with once the alcohol has absorbed all the water it can then there becomes a line between the gas and the watry alchohol as it falls out of solution, at that point its considered saturated. that watery snot stuff is what creates the debris issue.<br /> the guys with puddle hoppers and 6 gallon tanks have no worries, the guys with 240 gallon mains and a pair of 25 gallon aux tanks are gonna choke.
 

Scaaty

Vice Admiral
Joined
May 31, 2004
Messages
5,180
Re: Ethanol Gas

Originally posted by rodbolt:<br /> phase seperation has nothing to do with MTBE and everything to do with once the alcohol has absorbed all the water it can then there becomes a line between the gas and the watry alchohol as it falls out of solution, at that point its considered saturated. that watery snot stuff is what creates the debris issue.<br /> the guys with puddle hoppers and 6 gallon tanks have no worries, the guys with 240 gallon mains and a pair of 25 gallon aux tanks are gonna choke.
Amen....it AINT simple rubber hose replacement. You have billions on dollars in boats up and down the West coast that might sit for a long time with Stabiled gas in them, and the thing is, Stabil does Jack S@#t about Ethanols ability to suck water out of the air. Heet, WaterZorb, won't help either. These aren't closed systems, used daily like in cars. I see a LOT of problems down the line. If enough people on these forums would waste as much energy of finding some way to combat this problem, as they do defending it as the great cure-all, we might get somewhere. Those people hugging trees now just might have to cut it down and carve it out as their next boat if this continues. We need some innovation, and quit defending what is a KNOWN problem...WATER ABSORBTION...leading to who knows what untold problems in a massive built-in tank that is IMPOSSIBLE TO CHECK.
 
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