Ethanol Fuel Test

Silvertip

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 22, 2003
Messages
28,770
Re: Ethanol Fuel Test

Ethanol plants are closing at an alarming rate so perhaps this is a sign of things to come (or go). Supply and demande dictate how things go in a free market so when fuel prices are high, ethanol suddenly becomes attractive and corn prices go up as do food prices. Get oil prices down low and it goes the other way again. Get the government involved with subsidies and you can't predict anything.
 

scbackpacker

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Aug 26, 2009
Messages
130
Re: Ethanol Fuel Test

I have a 1/2 tank of ethanol and regular gasoline in my tank now. I put in star tron before I added the ethanol. The boat has been winterized and sitting about 2 months. I have 1995 4.3 liter mercruiser. The book tells me to run the engine dry.I did that. Drain the tank. This I haven't done. How long does it take for the fuel to separate? Do I need to drain it to my truck which will run E85? Will the water separator remove any gunk on the bottom? I hope this isn't seen as a hijack which I would never do but you guys who know a heck of a lot more than I do are looking at this post. I was hoping to get this boat back in the water sometime in March and run all the fuel out.
 

NSBCraig

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Aug 21, 2007
Messages
1,907
Re: Ethanol Fuel Test

To what acid are you referring?

I've read quite a few articles and threads on the subject ( a lot of which are on this forum) that point out that it's not just a layer of water and a layer of gas, but that the layer between is acid and eats tanks no matter what they are made of.

If this is in fact true then sucking out part of and adding fresh gas though may make your motor run better on the mix does not fix the problems you have.

Granted my research has been focused on the 42' Bluewater Yacht I've been trying to buy, so it's a little different do to tank size but the concerns should be the same if your tank isn't removable and you can flip it upside down so you know everything is out of it.

Let me try and dig them up for you.




And good to hear Silvertip, just kind of jumped out as an odd comment for you.
 

SuperNova

Lieutenant
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
1,455
Re: Ethanol Fuel Test

Ever been to a tranny shop and looked at the samples of tranny fluid. I have rebuilt lots of automatic tranny's in my day and I've never seen one with fluid the color of black shoe polish. How long do you think it took to find fluid that color.

About a minute and a half with an oxy-acetylene torch. Just heat it to about 300*F and ATF oxidizes VERY quickly.;)


Very Cool info, by the way Silvertip. I personally don't ever even remotely worry about fuel issues...I've just found it to be a non-issue. I don't drain or fill any of my tanks. Whatever fuel is in there when the item gets shut down for the season is what stays in there while it's laid up. I leave fuel valves open so the carbs stay wet. Motorcycles, lawn equipment, boats, kid's atv's, etc. No fuel problems...ever. I think there may have been some problems with fiberglass fuel tanks and E10 originally, and the fear grew from there.

By the way, anybody foolish enough to store fuel in old gallon milk jugs deserves what they get, but the plastic bottles Silvertip used are NOT the same type of plastic as milk jugs and probably wouldn't be affected by the fuel. He's been around the block a time or two, so don't underestimate him.
 

dingbat

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Nov 20, 2001
Messages
15,636
Re: Ethanol Fuel Test

I've read quite a few articles and threads on the subject ( a lot of which are on this forum) that point out that it's not just a layer of water and a layer of gas, but that the layer between is acid and eats tanks no matter what they are made of.
Your imaginary layer of acid is just water and dissolved oxygen in contact with a reactive material.

Although ethanol is corrosive, its corrosive properties are not the ones that bring damage to your fuel tank. Water is a corrosion agent because of its alkalinity, hardness, and pH. In addition, water is an oxidizing agent which can contribute to other corrosion problems. E-10 may have corrosive properties but it the water content in fuel that is the main culprit.

Here is what NMMA had to say about it:

Aluminum Fuel Tanks

In the case of aluminum tanks, aluminum is a highly conductive metal that relies on an oxide layer for its corrosion protection properties. Low levels of ethanol, such as E10 (10%), are usually not a problem in aluminum tanks because the oxide layer provides a good measure of protection.

http://www.nmma.org/lib/docs/nmma/gr/environmental/E20_Position_Paper.doc
 

Home Cookin'

Fleet Admiral
Joined
May 26, 2009
Messages
9,715
Re: Ethanol Fuel Test

let's think about that "nickel" sized sludge ball at the bottom--you have a half-full 12 oz bottle, and it turns into a 1/4 oz of gunk--you suggest not enough to do any harm to a carb or fuel jet. But if every 8 oz of fuel yields that much gunk, then a quart is an ounce, a gallon is 4 ounces, my 80- gallon tank is 320 ounces. Suckin gup from the bottom, I am dead in the water.
dumping it into the snow blower (remixing) starting it up and running it is no test of what it can do to motors.
Sorry, your experiment sold me on a position opposed to E 10.
 

puddle jumper

Captain
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
3,830
Re: Ethanol Fuel Test

Some time ago I indicated that I would post pictures of a long term fuel test on a sample of ethanol blended gasoline (also called E10). A little background is necessary. Those who frequent this forum know that I am not particularly concerned about E10 fuel as in my area (Minnesota) we've used the stuff since 1997. I personally have seen none of the devastation that others have either read about or personally observed but I do understand that there are some issues in coastal areas. I will present three pictures of the fuel sample with a bit of description of what you are looking at, followed by a recommendation and from there you can draw your own conclusions.
Picture #1: The sample.
FuelTest3.jpg

This is a sample of "untreated" E10 (in a 12 oz soda bottle) that dates to August 6, 2009. It has been in this container (vented) since that time and has undergone a 130 degree temperature swing along with the associated humidity changes. This fuel was stored outside for three of the six months and in my garage the last three months. At first glance you would think the brown stuff at the top looks awful. Actually that brown color is the very top of the fuel level as the camera is looking upward through the liquid column. It is of no consequence whatsoever. It is the dark color at the bottom of the container that we will be discussing.

Picture #2: A close up
FuelTest1.jpg

This and the other pictures were taken looking upward throught the container, with the container tilted toward the camera. This moved the separation into one of the indentations at the bottom of the container. The discoloration on the other areas of the container represent merely trace amounts and are also of no consequence. The amount of separation in the indentation facing you would in my view, amount to the displacement of perhaps a nickel and that might be a stretch.

Picture #3: Moisture content
FuelTest2.jpg

If you look at the indentation at the right you can see very small bubbles of moisture. There is no actual moisture (an actual layer of water) in this sample except for what you see.

This is certainly not a scientific experiment but it reinforces my feelings that 6-month old E10, even untreated will not generally cause any runability problems. I poured the contents of this test into my snowblower. My suggestion for E10 users is this: Use a fuel system treatment like Stabil Marine, SeaFoam or any of the engine manufacturers fuel treatments and go boating. If you have an older motor and are just switching to E10, clean the fuel tank, change the fuel lines, change the fuel filter, and go boating. If the engine does begin to act up, do not continue to run it that way. Chances are the carb(s) and the fuel pump now need rebuilding with ethanol tolerant components. The engine itself doesn't care about E10. If you live in a coastal area or have a very large boat with extremely large fuel tanks but don't use large amounts of fuel you may want to implement additional moisture protection measures.

I have to ask the sludge ball in the second photo was it like gum. I have run into P/U fuel pumps with that stuff plugging the fuel pump pickup filter and trust me it does not take much to plug it.
 

Silvertip

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 22, 2003
Messages
28,770
Re: Ethanol Fuel Test

I would hope most people with large tanks don't let their fuel tanks sit less than full for six months or more without being used and "without fuel system treatment" as was the case with this sample. That can be an issue with regular fuel as well. Didn't consider that part did you. If the tank is left half full or less, there is a great deal of open area in the tank for moisture to condense. Fill it up and that's no longer a problem. Those who are directed to run the engine dry are also making a mistake as a carbed engine cannot be run totally dry. A small amount of fuel will remain in the float boat which then also contains more unoccupied space for moisture to condense. EFI systems run dry can also cause issues whether you use E10 or not.
Lastly, the separation layer you see is not a thick wad of stuff. The moment your boat moves that layer begins to mix and will not do any damange. Yes -- if left long enough it will begin to thicken and potentially cause an issue. I keep coming back to the point of treating the fuel but that seems to be a foreign concept just like winterizing an I/O before the prevailing temps reach 32 degrees and then folks can't understand why there engine block or cylinder head cracked. All I can suggest is -- adapt or pay! It's just that simple.
While on the topic of fuel treatment, a large number of folks tend to feel dumping a fuel system treatment into six month old fuel brings it back to its original state. Ummm -- it doesn't work that way folks. Old fuel is old fuel. An be sure to run the engine long enough to get the treated fuel into the engine. THEN put it to bed.
 

sickwilly

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Jul 9, 2007
Messages
1,089
Re: Ethanol Fuel Test

For Chits and Grins, dump a thimble full of Star tron in there, shake it up and report back in a week. Some people seem to worship this stuff. Lets see what the enzymes do to the crud on the bottom.
 
Top