Ethanol and Re-Building Carbs Again???

[Aratsman]

Re: Ethanol and Re-Building Carbs Again???

Could the problem be with ethanol not mixing well with the oil? We are dealing with a pre-mix. Was the 2-cycle oil being used compatable with ethanol? Poor oil mixing, combined with the higer burning temps = failure in motors? Lack of lubrication?

 

[raymondpickens]

Re: Ethanol and Re-Building Carbs Again???

That is entirely possibly , although I have tried every name brand pre mix, All new gas cans, etc. The problem is its not just 2strokes, all of my local small engine mechanics are loaded to their gills with very similar work.

 

[RRitt]

Re: Ethanol and Re-Building Carbs Again???

on my small engines the most recurring theme revolved around fuel lines, gas tanks, and primer bulbs. The chainsaw and weed whacker had a clear fuel line and primer bulb that simply fell apart when exposed to ethanol. Little chunks of floating debris drifted up into carb and ruined it. The fuel cap vent on weed whacker was similarly turned to rubble. The replacement weed whacker simply ran too hot and burned itself out within a month.
The push lawn mower was a 4 stroke. It lasted a full 18months longer than the 2strokes. The vent on tank cap finally gave in and the debris ruined the carb. I have not yet examined the other lawnmower. I think it has a broken valve and is probably not related to ethanol poisoning.

BTW, just like raymondpickens says, all of the local repairs shops here are swamped with these types of repairs and every one of them says it is from the ethanol. Even the old timers who were probably fixing these things when gas was a nickle a gallon. At some point you just have to conclude that all the fancy lab tests overlooked something.

 

[grub_ba76]

Re: Ethanol and Re-Building Carbs Again???

the fancy lab test were done and they didn't care about the customer or engines being reliable..
they only cared about the pollution to keep the government happy..and they don't want our old engines to keep going, they want us to buy new ones...
its the same with out board 2 stroke oil its not the best 2 stroke oil as they don't wanna pollute our waters...motor bike 2 stroke is much better but illegal to use in a out board...when they recommend u use tcw3 its not to soot the motor its to soot the government...its a proven fact and i think japan or one of them don't use tcw3 in there out boards as its not the best 2 stroke oil...when they first changed to tcw3 a lot of out board companies has troubles with there engines and had to remake it to soot the oil...same with diesel fuel the government took the sulfur out and it ruined a lot of diesel engines so they had to remake the motors to soot the diesel...
its all about the governments and pollution...
they only tell u the good not the bad and make u think its better...
read up about japan doing 2 stroke oil test...u will be surprised on the different lubercations of different oils....especially the oils we think are the best and it wasn't out board oil

 

[JimS123]

Re: Ethanol and Re-Building Carbs Again???

Fourty years ago we used to have a marina that sold pre-mix gas. He burned up more outboards that you could imagine. He didn't sell 50:1......it was either 50:0 or 50:1000....LOL. His regular gas often had water in it too....his tanks leaked. That was way before ethanol. The only other local problems I ever heard about was bad gas from the Res....where no inspections are ever allowed.

Since there is no consensus here, and widely different experiences (many seemingly fuel related), I would have to assume that gas quality must be a regional thing. Obviously only crap is sold in TX or Australia.

All I can say is that I have a 1 year old car and a 31 year old car, a 3 year old outboard and a 63 year old outboard (63 year old gas tank too), a new lawnmower and a 20 year old weedwacker....and all run perfect. I use stabil and factory recommended 2-stroke oil (Yamaha or Evinrude).

 

[iwombat]

Re: Ethanol and Re-Building Carbs Again???

Like ondarvr says, we've been running ethanol (E10) out here since at least the mid 80s. The problems start happening when you introduce ethanol to a system that hasn't run it. Varnish builds up in everything, fuel lines, fuel pump, etc and the ethanol just removes it all and deposits it in the carb.

FWIW, I've got 22 internal combustion engines of various sorts, makes, sizes and strokes all running on the stuff. And they have been for years.


Edit: make that 20 - two are diesels

 

[h_lankford]

Re: Ethanol and Re-Building Carbs Again???

Another example:
4 cycle Briggs mower new 2009. Ran 1 hour. Next day would not start. Problem was gummed up carb main orifice AND fuel in tank was clear on day 1, but cloudy on day 2. Only happened in this mower, no change in the gas in other tanks, or in a glass jar I tried as an experiment.

Conclusion? Ethanol in the gas dissolved something in the tank or carb. Note it was brand new. Even now, there is new stuff that is not compatible. Made in China?

I now use non-ethanol gas from marina for boat, mowers ,etc.

 

[Outsider]

Re: Ethanol and Re-Building Carbs Again???

And there is legislation on the FL books which will allow for the sale of E15

Wow, you guys are quick down there. E-15 was approved by the EPA about a month ago for use in 2007 and later motor vehicles, and Florida has a law already ...

 

[RRitt]

Re: Ethanol and Re-Building Carbs Again???

Another example:
4 cycle Briggs mower new 2009. Ran 1 hour. Next day would not start. Problem was gummed up carb main orifice AND fuel in tank was clear on day 1, but cloudy on day 2. Only happened in this mower, no change in the gas in other tanks, or in a glass jar I tried as an experiment.

Conclusion? Ethanol in the gas dissolved something in the tank or carb. Note it was brand new. Even now, there is new stuff that is not compatible. Made in China?

I now use non-ethanol gas from marina for boat, mowers ,etc.

and Japan. My brand new weed whacker that self-destructed due to ethanol was made in japan.

 

[jeffersondodson561]

Re: Ethanol and Re-Building Carbs Again???

This is yet another rant about ethanol that will likely continue because the uninformed continue to make problems where they don't exist. I have posted many times on this topic and have included pictures of ethanol in clear containers that have sat for six months with no significant visible separation. I have an open container in my shed as we speak that has been there all summer with no hint of moisture. Here in the tundra we've also been ethanol users since 1997 and have had no issues except for the actual "known issue" of attacking non-ethanol tolerant rubber and plastic parts. My care runs on E85 and sits for weeks at a time with zero issues. If the fuel system was already dirty when you started using ethanol, that gunk WILL be cleaned up and deposited in filters. So you see -- the problem is NOT ethanol, it is years of fuel system neglect (as in not using fuel system treatment). There are issues on the coasts or on boats with very large tanks that don't get used frequently. Those boats seem to have higher moisture related issues.

Totally agree ethenol is a potential problem but it gives a serious cloud of doubt for mechanics to hide behind. The fact is that ethanol will cause damage but it takes a while for it to do so. All marine manufactures recommend no more than 10% ethenol. If you are concerned about your fuel purchase you can purchase a alcohol tester from Briggs & Stratton dealership, part number 100023, this will be superceded. If you test your fuel I would be suprised if you see more than 7% alcohol especially in summer blend fuels.

 

[kmarine]

Re: Ethanol and Re-Building Carbs Again???

Crc makes a fuel stabilizer with ethanol treatment costs about $30 per gallon and will treat about 600 gallons. I use this on all the boats I winterize. Even the ones
which only buy marine fuel ethanol free. We have to order it that way and pay a premium for it. I like to put seafoam in all my small engines like snowmibe lawn mower small outboard etc. but it is too expensive to use on large fuel tanks. Do you pull your fuel line and run your carbs out of gas on your outboard?

 

[iwombat]

Re: Ethanol and Re-Building Carbs Again???

Do you pull your fuel line and run your carbs out of gas on your outboard?

You can get away with this on a single-carb two-stroke. Never do this on a multi-carb two-stroke. Remember, carbs deliver lubrication as well as fuel.

 

[JimS123]

Re: Ethanol and Re-Building Carbs Again???

You can get away with this on a single-carb two-stroke. Never do this on a multi-carb two-stroke. Remember, carbs deliver lubrication as well as fuel.

I've seem many a 2-stroke grenade because one of the carbs got out of balance and that cylinder was starved of fuel. It usually happens after a long burst of WOT running.

If the motor is balanced and running well, the inside should be well coated with oil. If you pull the fuel line, the 4 seconds that one carb runs out of fuel before the others, with the engine at idle, will do no harm.

I would not think of pulling my boat out of the water without pulling the fuel line first. Been doing it for 45 years and have never rebuilt an engine yet.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Ethanol and Re-Building Carbs Again???

Running it out of fuel only lowers the the level in the float bowl, it doesn't empty it, so it really doesn't help much.

 

[JimS123]

Re: Ethanol and Re-Building Carbs Again???

Running it out of fuel only lowers the the level in the float bowl, it doesn't empty it, so it really doesn't help much.

Very true. But, I think it helps a lot. I say that after running outboards for 50+ years and never having one fail.

Whether full or half full, some will evaporate over time. That will leave some gunk behind. Half full means half as much gunk. Also, when you start her back up, you have it now at least half full with fresh gas.

My reply was to dispute the comment that the motor will blow up if you run it out.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Ethanol and Re-Building Carbs Again???

That's the problem with this debate, 95% of the people have no problems whether they run it out of fuel, drain it, or do nothing but turn off the key. I rarely do anything but turn off the key and in those same 50 years I can't say I've really had any problems either.

 

[Wingpilot]

Re: Ethanol and Re-Building Carbs Again???

HS91 MIKE- I just did a very quick check and found three marinas in your area that have "ethanol-free" gasoline- Fernandina Harbor Marina, Palm Cove Marina in Jacksonville, and Beach Marina in Jacksonville Beach. There must be plenty more. I am one of the people on this board that does NOT have my head in the sand when it comes to the possibly devastating effects of ethanol in gasoline- geez- it's been proven over and over! And the internet is rife with documentation to that end.
Florida allows the use and distribution of ethanol -free gas for a variety of applications- boats, off-road, aircraft, small engines, and the list goes on.
We are fortunate in the Tampa area (Clearwater, Largo, etc.) to have a few gas stations and commercial suppliers that sell non-ethanol gas to the public. It is a little more expensive but,IMO, it's well worth it. I still take other precautions- fuel/water separator, use Marine Stabil, keep my tanks full when not in use, and I carry extra fuel filters. If I get stranded out on the water I'm trying to make sure it's not fuel related.
I have my "flame resistant" suit on and I expect to be flamed. BUT- I do what I feel is best for my boat and engines after extensive study and considerable monetary loss (3 engines blown on two boats in three years DIRECTLY attributed to ethanol/phase separation). You and everyone else do what you feel is best and I hope that we are all correct in our choices.

 

[Sea Stomper]

Re: Ethanol and Re-Building Carbs Again???

3 years, 490 hours on a 1975 Chrysler 75 hp, no winterizing, no carb draining, no precautions other than normal running and just shutting the thing off. This is a deep water offshore solo sport fishing boat operated in Pacific Northwest ocean waters with a racing ignition system. E10 ethanol, no issues, no plugged filters, NOTHING except one fuel tank float gauge issue. Same with the lawnmowers here, and the chain saws and weed eaters over a 30 year period. Very interesting how subjective an objective issue can be. Technical issues are subject to old tales, anecdotal stories, "religious" beliefs and so forth that perpetuate themselves through advocacy from "experts" like techs and mechs (like me) who could be motivated by the "do something" affliction. Just an observation.

40 years behind the professional wrench (recip aviation, gas turbine aviation, Cummins diesel tech, and more..) has made me lazy in some respects, but there are no issues in my equipment that motivate me to winterize, treat fuel with chemicals that cost money, or change my fueling habits from that of buying the cheapest whether it says ethanol or not. Bottom line is, I'm lazy and have not suffered for it with regard to ethanol. Having said that, my float fuel gauges in 3 of my plastic outboard tanks don't float anymore. Ethanol impregnation perhaps? I wouldn't doubt it.