Domestic Spying

[POINTER94]

Re: Domestic Spying

Carter and Clinton used wiretaps without court warrants and the Bush administration is using the explaination of Jeanie Garelli of the Clinton administration in their public responses. And we were not at war when jimmy and bill used them. Being in a state of war gives the president powers not customary, like say when FDR put the Japanese Americans in concentration camps. History paints him as one of the greatest presidents of the 20th century.<br /><br />I am truely uncomfortable with any government agency having this kind of authority, but it is monitored by the attourney general and the loyal opposition. I am more concerned with the activities of the terrorists.

 

[PW2]

Re: Domestic Spying

The fact is we have no idea who is being spied on, and why. We have only the president's word that we are onlt listening to bad guys talking to other bad guys...and his administration's record for accuracy is dubious at best.<br /><br />If that is true, why not get the warrant? What could be wrong with a little judicial oversight? Surely it cannot shock the bad guys that someone may be listening to them!<br /><br />Speed can not be an issue, as according to the FISA law, the government is allowed a warrantless tap for up to 72 hours before going to the court for a warrant.<br /><br />So who exactly is being hysterical in this?<br /><br />And I do find it curious that the very same people so willing to give up their rights to privacy are the very same ones that loudly try to protect their supposed right to "bear arms".

 

[SpinnerBait_Nut]

Re: Domestic Spying

I will say that it is a right that they are infringing on, but with that said, if it saves another 9/11 then so be it. I don't have anything to hide anyway.

 

[PW2]

Re: Domestic Spying

I agree, SBN.<br /><br />If it is used solely as advertised, it is indeed probably a good and necessary thing to do.<br /><br />But there are reasons why there is a system of checks and balances in place, and that unchecked power is a corrupting, dangerous thing. In anyone's hands, however well meaning they may be.

 

[JB]

Re: Domestic Spying

Too many opinions and too much hearsay being trumpeted as "facts" here. That is a fact.<br /><br />When there is a political axe to grind conjecture, gossip and opinions seem to turn into "facts".<br /><br />The intent here is to spy on the enemy, some of whom might not have known they were being monitored except for the media.<br /><br />What would have happened if, in early 1942, some newsrag published a story about how we were reading the Japanese Navy's communications?

 

[DJ]

Re: Domestic Spying

<br />The fact is we have no idea who is being spied on, and why. We have only the president's word that we are onlt listening to bad guys talking to other bad guys...and his administration's record for accuracy is dubious at best.<br />

That's the whole point. Or, should we let the terrorists know, in advance, we're going to be listning? In war time, when one has the upper hand, it should be used.<br /><br />We cannot win a "politically charged" war. We know that. Viet Nam is proof. But, who remembers history?

 

[Ron G]

Re: Domestic Spying

If it saves the lives of my fellow americans,im all for it.as DJ said like it or not we are at war so we must protect ourselves by any means necesarry.but the only thing on this subject i have heard is that the majority of people tapped was from hotspots to possble inside cells here.

 

[tomatolord]

Re: Domestic Spying

I listened to someone who was involved in setting up the FISA court and the congressional oversite committees. <br /><br />This is how bush "spied" on the american people.<br /><br />They find 1 time cell phones in iraq/afganistan etc. They look at the either the redial list or the received list. All cell phones have memories.<br /><br />Some of those numbers are US numbers. <br /><br />That in it self is not enough "proof" to get a wiretap. The FISA process would take 2-3 months to get approval - Note:FISA approval only takes 2-3 hours, but you need to spend 2-3 months in preparing the report to get the 2-3 hour approval.<br /><br />The NSA simply said "bullpuck" we have a phone from a terrorist - he makes a call to the US, we will monitor that phone in the US (spy on a US citizen) in order to find out what is going on.<br /><br />The terrorist think they can use our own laws against us. <br /><br />They cannot easedrop on EVERY phone call in the US it is technically impossible. They have to have some sort of starting/reference point to go with.<br /><br />The persons comment was that when the FISA court was put in place they never envisoned cell phone and email technology that exists today.<br /><br />FISA was mostly around cold war spying<br /><br />Update FISA to speed up the process<br />or<br />Truly believe we are in a real WAR against terrorists and any minute piece of evidence needs to be followed up on.<br /><br />tomatolord<br /><br />Tomatolord

 

[Limited-Time]

Re: Domestic Spying

Originally posted by DJ:<br />

<br />The fact is we have no idea who is being spied on, and why. <br />

That's the whole point. Or, should we let the terrorists know, in advance, we're going to be listning? In war time, when one has the upper hand, it should be used.<br /><br />We cannot win a "politically charged" war. We know that. Viet Nam is proof. But, who remembers history?

Try this on for size (sarcasm on) <www.whowe’respyingon.gov> Listed here you will find all individuals currently under investigation, and those that will be within the next 24 to 48 hours. Also listed will be the reason for their addition to the list and factors leading to their surveillance. This way every one will know the status of their privacy and whom to be suspect of. (Sarcasm off)<br /><br />As stated prior THIS IS WAR. What reason would the national security agencies have for listening in on non critical communications at this point in time? All this inelegance gathering takes time, money, and personal. Why would the agencies in charge choose to squander any of these resources by monitoring non critical or non threatening groups or their activities?

 

[JB]

Re: Domestic Spying

"The NSA simply said "bullpuck" we have a phone from a terrorist - he makes a call to the US, we will monitor that phone in the US (spy on a US citizen) in order to find out what is going on."<br /><br />A person with a phone number in the US is not necessarily a US citizen. I would say that a record of communication with a known terrorist in a foriegn country is probable cause for immediate action, but what do I know?

 

[BoatBuoy]

Re: Domestic Spying

Would all of you have the same confidence in the integrity of surveillence if the other party were in the WH? Because that may very well be the question some day. The rules chosen to be enforced now, will be enforced for the future as well. The rules don't change with a change in administration.

 

[txswinner]

Re: Domestic Spying

rolmops, You have my apology and your reasoning is sound, I shall hereafter refrain from the use of the term in question. That is not done out of threat of censureship but because it does offend you as an individual; and that, I do respect. Again my heartfelt apologies and promise.

 

[Limited-Time]

Re: Domestic Spying

Originally posted by BoatBuoy:<br /> Would all of you have the same confidence in the integrity of surveillence if the other party were in the WH? Because that may very well be the question some day. The rules chosen to be enforced now, will be enforced for the future as well. The rules don't change with a change in administration.

Had the previous administration taken actions to strengthen our national security this administration may not have needed to implement the actions currently employed to "catch up" to where we need to be. i.e. disarming Al Qada (sp) and OBL after their first planned attack on the WTC as well as the attack on the USS Cole, to mention a few. We will ever know how much additional organization and support Al Qada (sp) garnered during our 8 years of inaction to their actions.

 

[PW2]

Re: Domestic Spying

So if there are problems with the FISA court (and I don't have any idea if there is or not) then they should go to congress (in secret session if need be) and get the laws changed.<br /><br />Inconvenience is not an excuse for disobeying a law. Ignoring the constitution when it is inconvenient is not acceptable

 

[txswinner]

Re: Domestic Spying

Note how the administration has avoided the issue of consitutional wrong by launching an investigation into who released the information. Hey, that guy should be protected by the "Whistle Blower Act" or something. <br /><br />Either party, I am not big on giving up my Constitutional rights. Since when does one get to change the Constitution they were elected under at will. This is wrong whether it is Bush, Clinton, all the way back to the George Washington and anyone who disagrees is would have disagreed with our independence from Britain back in 1776 or thereabout.

 

[18rabbit]

Re: Domestic Spying

Originally posted by rolmops:<br /> The fact is that the president ordered wiretaps while ignoring the law of the land. It seems that he thinks that he is above the law.

Maybe, we don’t know, yet. Looks like it was a violation Shrub thought wouldn’t be discovered. Justice Dept atty’s are saying the taps narrowly fit within the law. Me thinks Shrub needs to get a grip on reality. There is nothing anywhere that allows wire taps on anyone without a warrant.<br /><br />Heard someone describe the slippery slope Shrub put us on this way:<br /><br />Top of Slope - if we are told illegal wire taps picked on plans for a portable nuke and prevented it form going off, no one is going to care that it was an illegal wire tap.<br /><br />Going Down - if we are told illegal wire taps picked on a known terrorist’s plan for terror, people may or may not be concerned that an illegal wire tap was used.<br /><br />Going Down - if we are told illegal wire taps picked on some domestic illegal activity, people are going to question that an illegal wire tap was used.<br /><br />The Bottom - if we are told illegal wire taps picked on some political adversaries’ strategic plans to overturn abortion laws, people are going to take action that an illegal wire tap was used.<br /><br />Our problem with this whole mess is that we don’t where we are on that slippery slope because there is zero oversight, and thus zero potential for discovery of abuse.<br /><br />

National security has always been a blanket under which many corrupt acts can be hidden.

Some intell folks agree with you. Back when the Homeland Security Dept was created, several retired intell folks commented it was long over due, Clinton tried to do the same thing but since as pres he didn’t have the support of either party he couldn’t do anything but sit and watch. Shrub was successful in knocking down the CIA’s rogue power run by subjecting them to the oversight of an office above them, and reducing the CIA to a level equivalent with the FBI. According to the these intell folks, the formation of the dept of Homeland Sec had nothing to do with info sharing and everything to do with bringing the CIA back under the control of presidency.

 

[txswinner]

Re: Domestic Spying

Limited Time: Right!!!!!<br /><br />To your remark:<br /><br />"Had the previous administration taken actions to strengthen our national security this administration may not have needed to implement the actions currently employed to "catch up" to where we need to be. i.e. disarming Al Qada (sp) and OBL after their first planned attack on the WTC as well as the attack on the USS Cole, to mention a few."<br /><br />I respond:<br />Perhaps the Demo's could have used this and other protective measures and we would have Al Gore in the White House and there would have been no invasion da duh dah. The government violating our rights is illegal, unconsciousable, and totally unacceptable.<br /><br />We don't hang people the day after convicted, you are innocent until proven guilty, you get to bear arms (I hope we don't lose this one either), and we have a right against unlawful search and seizure. Wrong is wrong no matter who does it.

 

[DJ]

Re: Domestic Spying

I respond:<br />Perhaps the Demo's could have used this and other protective measures and we would have Al Gore in the White House and there would have been no invasion da duh dah. The government violating our rights is illegal, unconsciousable, and totally unacceptable.<br />

If VP Gore were in the White House, we'd all be DEAD.<br /><br />Remember the monestary and the Chi-Com's? It may be coming-soon, thanks to VP Gore.<br /><br />There used to be an ENFORCED law called treason.<br /><br />VP Gore fit the perp. profile perfectly.<br /><br />But, hey, what do I know. Many, in their own mind, know the US is EVIL and should be DESTROYED.<br /><br />One thing I do know, for sure, is that the US will be destroyed, from within. There are many historical models to prove it.<br /><br />But, who belives those historical facts. History, today, is relegated to "stories".

 

[txswinner]

Re: Domestic Spying

The original thread was directed toward the leader of the right Rush Limburger thinks about gathering personal information by the government, anyone wonder why no one addressed that issue although we are at the point of attacking Al Gore.<br /><br />I would like to see one reply from the one of the folks that support his ideals.

 

[BoatBuoy]

Re: Domestic Spying

Limited-Time,<br /> If you continue to look backward rather than forward, you'll most certainly stumble.