Dog training (Update)

[lakelivin]

Re: Dog training (Update)

If you're gonna use force, I've read that pushing the dogs lips against the object in his mouth is the most effective way to get him to drop it. That would seem like it would be more effective than twisting his ears.<br /><br />But it sounds like you've got a problem with clarity as far as the alpha role with the dog. I agree with the others above who say just don't play HIS game. As soon as he refuses ONE stern 'leave it' command, turn around, walk away, and COMPLETELY ignore him for awhile. Even if he signals he wants to play & drops the frisbee for you, don't immediately resume play. By making him wait till YOU'RE ready he will get the message that 1) YOU'RE the alpha and YOU determine the rules of play and 2) there are consequences to his actions. If his play drive is that strong he'll learn pretty quickly. <br /><br />If you start tugging, he's showing dominance in that he's got you playing his game instead of the other way around.<br /><br />My female border collie is VERY strong willed and displayed similar behaviour (although not with the frisbee; she likes chasing that so much I never had trouble getting her to drop it). Didn't take long to get her to stop the negative behavior once she realized that I wasn't going to cooperate.<br /><br />Might also want to reinforce your alpha role with the dog. There lots of books on pack behavior that illustrate little things that a dog views as enhancing his alpha status that we don't even realize have special meaning. Like who goes in or out of the door first, order in which you eat, etc. Even petting the dog when it comes up to you and demands attention can send the wrong message. I really liked the Monks of New Skeet books that BobVT mentioned above. <br /><br /><br />Good luck; I bet if you reinforce your alpha role (and not just while playing) and gain a little better understanding of how dogs perceive things (instead of how we perceive them), you'll straighten out Bear pretty quickly.<br /><br />Once you do, you might want to check out the skyhoundz frisbee contests in your area. Don't be intimidated by the national freestyle contests you see on tv. The local events have distance contests that don't require a routine and are designed for everyone, even beginners. All you need is a dog that will catch & return the disc to you. I saw one woman and her standard poodle who entered one here. The dog didn't catch one frisbee, but it had a blast, and that's the whole idea of the contest at the local level.<br /><br /> http://www.skyhoundz.com/index.html

 

[QC]

Re: Dog training (Update)

Thanks all. I will try a couple of ideas here. The Alpha Male thing is interesting, I have always assumed that he gets that, but there could possibly be some confusion. He knows I am the serious one in the house and treats me like I would understand the Alpha deal, but maybe not.<br /><br />I've actually thought about competing with him as he is soo damn good. I understood there was a small venue type routine too. Something like a 50' x 50' square and you try and fill as much of it with catches as you can in a certain time. Ring any bells? This dog would absolutely tear that up. He stops on a dime, turns and runs straight back and puts the Frisbee in my hand. This is why I am so frustrated. He is an absolute joy to watch, and play Frisbee with, until it goes to heck in a hand basket . . .

 

[lakelivin]

Re: Dog training (Update)

QC, yeah, I've seen that one on TV, but don't know who sponsers it. Google on 'frisbee contest' or maybe even add in 'border collie' (frisbee competition is so popular with the breed I bet there are alot of BC sites with links to different competitions).<br /><br />w.r.t. the alpha thing, all I know is that I was completely ignorant about how dogs perceive alot of things that I never even thought about. A couple of books really were enlightening. Quick test: go up to Bear (in a non threatening way), stare at him, and see how long it takes for him to look away. That's a great indicator of dominance within the pack. <br /><br />b.t.w., I've competed with a previous dog and found that I was the limiting factor when it came right down to it. Once the competition got going & we were doing well, my nerves started to take over & my throws got worse & worse. Surprising cause it was just a friendly local event. I did win a Frisbee dog t-shirt for finishing third in one event.

 

[QC]

Re: Dog training (Update)

Originally posted by LakeLivin:<br /> I've competed with a previous dog and found that I was the limiting factor

Same with this dog. If he misses one, it was 99 times out of 100 my fault. He rarely just drops one. Quite the reverse, if I screw up he often makes me look good . . . <br /><br />How long should they stare back if they truley respect you as the Alpha?

 

[18rabbit]

Re: Dog training (Update)

The dog lacks fundamental dog training. He sees you as he equal when fetching the fris, thus he ignores your command. You need to go back and start with basic dog training, create in his mind that you are the dominating male. After that is established, you can work with him on fetch. He should having the feeling he is pleasing you by fetching. When that happens, he will fetch and release all day long.

 

[lakelivin]

Re: Dog training (Update)

Not sure. I've read a couple of good books and picked up the gist of pack behavior, but don't want to imply that I'm any kind of expert.<br /><br />Unfortunately I loaned the books to friends that got new dogs and the books haven't made their way back to me .<br /><br />But I do know the quicker he looks away, the clearer it is to him that you're the alpha. A direct stare from close range is a hierarchal challenge in dog language and if he's taking more than a second or two to look away, your position as alpha isn't as clear to him as it should be.<br /><br />My female is about 20 lbs. lighter and 5 years older than my male. Although she rarely displays it, when it comes down to it she's the dominant of the two. A few years ago she got real ornery. Turned out to be hypothyroidism, easily controlled by a pill each day (other symptoms were a loss of energy, increased appetite, weight gain, and hair loss if anyone else has a dog whose personality changes fairly suddenly).<br /><br />Anyways, before we got her on meds, she'd go up to my male lying on the floor for no other purpose than to stare at him and demonstrate her dominance. He knew to turn his head in the other direction pretty quickly, but once or twice he was lying down between the couch and a chest I use as a coffee table and didn't have room to turn his head. She immediately jumped on him cause he didn't defer to her rank in our 'pack'; fortunately I was right there to break up the fight. <br /><br />If you get a chance, check out 'How To Be Your Dogs Best Friend' by the Monks of New Skeet. Your library might have it, or you can browse through it a bit at a bookstore. You might find it a very worthwhile investment.

 

[QC]

Re: Dog training (Update)

Ya know guys. I was just sittin' with Mrs. QC and I mentioned your responses. I said something about how the Alpha male thing was not clear in Bear's mind. She sorta scoffed and said "It's not that he doesn't know who the Alpha male is, it's that he doesn't care". She is sooo right. We all love this dog to pieces and he makes everybody laugh and smile. The whole block knows him etc. He is a big goofball, who does weird stuff and has the goofiest expressions. But the more I think about it, although he is trainable, it is only to a point. Past that, he does what he wants.<br /><br />Like my last Bear post with the trash and the ribs and the candy, he knows that is wrong, but he is willing to deal with it. We got him from a breeder. He was maybe 5 months old. Only puppy they had. The breeder's wife had kinda taken him under her wing, but he was still there at 5 months . . . I told the wife I didn't want him, but she had already fell in love with him and there was no talking her out of it. He had a little cut across his snout where his daddy had disciplined him over an attempt to be the man around the kennel. Maybe another indicator . . .<br /><br />If you have seen Homeward Bound, this dog is Chance, except he is Chance who doesn't grow up . . . I'll look into the book ideas. Thanks, you guys zeroed in on it.

 

[walleyehed]

Re: Dog training (Update)

It's very simple, QC, and 18R got real close...<br />The fact is, the dog has marked the toy as his, and, it is HIS game....you are simply playing along. The dog needs to know when the Frisbie is thrown, it's to be released at hand. In most cases like this, it requires some force training, but once started, you can't turn back until the dog is broke to retreive. He is not excepting YOU as the alpha..it's not uncommon for this to happen, and especially with a very social dog.

 

[tylerin]

Re: Dog training (Update)

Personally I don't think it's an Alpha situation. I'm sure you've established that long ago. Your training w/ the dog lacks consistancy. My 10 yr old daughter plays retrieve w/ my Lab and they go into tug-o-war more often then not. When she uses training dummies then then he changes his way. Delivers to hand. Birds, not once have I tugged on a bird. He is feeling out the situation and seeing what he can get away with. Try using a dummy for your training sessions and when your done put it up. Only use it for training. /Toys laying around the house that he can p/u any time he wants become his.<br />Try these libraries from Dobbs.Inventor of the tritronics e-collar<br /> http://www.dobbsdogs.com/library/retrievers/index.html

 

[QC]

Re: Dog training (Update)

Tylerin and walley,<br /><br />I still struggle with the Alpha thing a little too, he does know me as the Alpha. But I am a model of consistency with him. I stand the same way use the same hand motions, the same commands, same routine etc. And I put the Fris up after every session. The ONLY thing that changes is HIS timing for the beginning of the tugging. And when that started (there was a time when he didn't do this carp) I tried some different combos to get him out of the bad pattern. I travel, so I make it clear to everyone that they can't leave the frisbee out for him. "He needs to respect it and it has to be put away." Well that hasn't always worked, so he has tasted Frisbee meat and he likes it. That alone may be the issue . . . he wants to chew one up soooo bad that he doesn't want to give it back.<br /><br />The reason the Alpha thing is piquing my interest is that discipline has always been an issue with everything but Frisbee. My wife and I are by no means dog trainers, but we are very good with them. I have trained four dogs on frisbee etc. and they all behave very well. My wife also takes their training seriously and is very consistent etc. too. Even Bear, who is on his own page a lot, is ten times the dog than most neighborhood dogs. Our dogs don't get any scraps, they know where they sleep, know where they eat, and they are very focused on retrieves. Bear has always pushed the limits though, with how far he wanders, diggin' in the trash etc. etc.<br /><br />BTW, he has been "feeling out the situation" for about two years now. Sometimes I think if he had been bought by a true hunter and properly field trained, they would've shot him by now . . . He would have been perfect, then he would've started tearin' up birds or sumpin' and they would have just ended it.

 

[lakelivin]

Re: Dog training (Update)

One the things I like about the New Skeet books are the way they handle discipline. They recognize that it's necessary, but approach it from a dogs perspective, escalating as necesssary. <br /><br />First of all, they believe that establishing a strong, loving bond with the dog is critical. They recommend that if you're not willing to let the dog inside and be a full member of the family (pack), you should probably consider something else as a pet. I guess this wouldn't apply if you have multiple dogs that can form their own social group, but recognize that their group bond will be stronger and make training harder than if the primary bond is with you.<br /><br />They also stress clearly establishing and reenforcing the alpha role. Sounds like Bear is a very strong willed dog and keeps testing you w.r.t. his rank (just like my female Sasha did). AFTER I got Sasha I looked at a test for puppies that helps you guage their personality type. She was a type A, which they said should be owned by professionals or people with alot of experience in training dogs. Had I know about the test before I picked her I would have chosen a different p;uppy for my first dog. Her type is harder to train, but the best personality for a true working dog (agility, obedience, herding, guard, etc.) if properly trained . Not the best personality if you're just looking for an average pet and are unwilling to put in the time to train them and keep them occupied with a regular 'job' (even if the job is just frisbee catching). <br /><br />They recommend non harsh methods to train the dog. They also recognize that discipline may be necessary once the dog knows a command or the rules and refuses to obey them. I believe their first step is to have you give the command it in a very deep, growling-type voice with an up close hard stare, so that the dog knows you're not playing. Maybe try grabbing Bear by the scruff of his neck instead of grabbing the frisbee if he ignores your first 'drop it' command. Get right in his face and repeat it in a deep voice. That way he won't confuse your pulling the frisbee for a game. I know from experience that a hard stare conveyes a MUCH stronger message than yelling at Sasha, who probably thinks I'm playing when I yell, just like she barks when she gets excited.<br /><br />If the deep voice and stare don't work, discipline escalates to something like the alpha shake down or the alpha roll over, where you turn the dog over on it's back and pin him to the ground while scolding in the deep voice. This sends a VERY strong mesage to the dog and can be pretty traumatic to a more placid dog & should not be used as a first resort or for minor infractions.<br /><br />They even acknowledge that in certain circumstances (excessive aggression towards people or other dogs, etc.) you may need to hit the dog, but they explain exactly HOW to do it (force the dog to sit & cuff him under the chin with an open hand, force equivalent to the size & personality of the dog) and what you do after so as to not damage your relationship with the dog.<br /><br />One thing I do remember is that if you discipline the dog and he doesn't slink away and avoid eye contact with you for 5 minutes or so he didn't get the message. After 5 or 10 minutes you do something calm with the dog (a walk or whatever) to let him know the punishment was for his action and to reestablish your relationship with him.<br /><br />Good luck, sounds like you've got some work ahead but that Bear is well worth it.

 

[18rabbit]

Re: Dog training (Update)

Originally posted by LakeLivin:<br /> Unfortunately I loaned the books to friends that got new dogs and the books haven't made their way back to me

Yeah, they make great chew toys.<br />

 

[tylerin]

Re: Dog training (Update)

My pup Bullet at 11 months and Force Fetched. Trained w/ a e-collar that now at 14 months rarely even need to use. I think it's the most humane way to reinforce commands in training a dog. I just can't see rolling my pup over and roughing it up if it doesn't obey commands. In the blind I think we become 2 friends with different jobs to do. Not a real big hiarchy thing going on. Just my 2 cents<br />

<br />

 

[QC]

Re: Dog training (Update)

Nice looking dog. I feel the same way Tylerin, it has just escalated a few times as he will NOT let go. I keep thinkin' if I let him have it, the message is "you make the rules, Bear, let me know when we get to play again". That doesn't seem right either.<br /><br />I used to make him retrieve until he gave a couple of good retrieves in a row (remember the first 4 - 7 retrieves are always perfect, then he starts with the little tugs and it goes progressively downhill). Kinda my own force fetch thing, but again, when he says he is done it is just pitiful. He will sit right next to me and wag his tail and come very close, but he will NOT release it.<br /><br />What I have tried the last couple of days, (from a suggestion above) is stop the moment he tugs at all. Yesterday, that was about four retrieves, but I don't think he has a clue why we stopped . . .

 

[QC]

Re: Dog training (Update)

First, he is seriously improving!!!<br /><br />I wanted to follow-up on this as I got a lot of good help from you guys. What I ended up doing is I play with him in rapid succession. If he fails to release (even a slight tug), the game ends right there, I leave him in the backyard for a few minutes, nothing more. If I end it in time for a good release, we go straight in for a treat and all is good. May do this 5 - 6 times a day. After doing this now for about about six weeks, he has definitely improved. I have ended all sessions over the last couple of weeks without any tugging issues. He is getting easily past 10 or more throws and we are both a LOT happier . . . Only problem is he is probably more obsessed now <br /><br />Thanks for all of the suggestions!!

 

[Kalian]

Re: Dog training (Update)

Cool! I was wondering how that turned out.

 

[lakelivin]

Re: Dog training (Update)

Good news. I was surprised to see how quickly they can pick up the message once we learn how to give it. Started to say it's surprising how smart they are, but looking back on my situation, a good portion of it was how ignorant I was when it came to our interactions and what means what to the dogs.<br /><br />Did you check out whether there are any frisbee contests out your way? Sounds like Bear is ready for one!<br /><br />p.s. for a real treat for Bear, check if he can see the dot from a red laser pointer (green ones are dangerous w.r.t. eyesight) and let him chase that around. One or two 'fetching/chasing' oriented dogs I've tried it with couldn't see it, but the rest go nuts chasing the 'dot'. Outdoors during the evening or at night or indoors except when it's fairly bright inside. That's the one thing my dogs like to chase even more than a frisbee. And it's so precise I can run them around the coffee table indoors without risking them trashing the room. Makes it easy to exercise them even when it's raining outdoors. Just be careful the first couple of times you try it on a wood or tile floor; going after it hard on tile or wood is gonna propel him sliding into whatever is at the end of the wood or tile. They learn after a time or two that stopping takes time, but could hurt themselves pretty easily in the interim...

 

[Reel Poor]

Re: Dog training (Update)

Dont mean to hijack QC. <br /><br />Lakelivin I had a Jack Russell that would chase those lights anywhere you could shine it. She would go under a bed, chair, table or anywhere she "thought" it went. She would even jump toward the cieling with all her might if that dot ran up the wall and across the cieling. After a while anytime she came in the room she would stop and look all around for that red dot to run around the room (when it wasnt). She would sit there an hour or more , just looking and waiting on that dot to come out. Any little thing that caught her eye would make her immediately snap her head around looking for it. It was funny as he11. It was kind of like she was shellshocked from it. I kinda felt sorry for her, the way she acted when she came in my room, so I quit playing with it. It really was halarious though, Ive laughed my ars off many times.<br /><br />Thanks for the reminder.

 

[lakelivin]

Re: Dog training (Update)

Reel Poor,<br /><br />Yeah, I can just imagine a Jack Russell combined with a laser pointer, lol. My male BC will lay outside for hours at night waiting & hoping I'll come out with the laser pointer (that's usually where we play with it). If he thinks it's inside, he'll sit there intently scanning the floor trying to find it (but not for too long once I'm not standing there). <br /><br />The neighbors labs (when they're up for the weekend) will come charging across the cove at night if they see I've got it out, and won't go home until I go inside, even if their owner calls them.<br /><br />I think it's the best toy ever for fetching/ chasing oriented dogs. I just need to remember to take it easy on them, cause they certainly won't. The neighbor has a huge lab that is overweight and lives in an apartment. He starts panting & breathing so hard chasing the 'dot' that I'm afraid he's going to have a heart attact and have to give him a rest.<br /><br />And all you have to do is stand there and point the thing. Don't know if that's good or bad; I could use more exercise myself, lol.<br /><br />Glad it brought back some good memories. Lord knows we can use as many of them as we can get.