does your insurance company have to pay you?

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a70eliminator

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Re: does your insurance company have to pay you?

A few years back I saw a news report where an area had a prolonged heavy snow. Insurance companies were calling home owners and telling them if they didnt remove the snow an their roofs they would not cover a collapse.

Not unless it was already written into the policyholders contract they didn't.
I mean yes they could remind policyholders but not simply tailor a contract to weather the conditions, sounds fishy to me.
 

freddyray21

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Re: does your insurance company have to pay you?

the whole point of this thread is that there are times when the insurance company does not have to pay a claim under certain conditions. We can argue over what those conditions may or may not be, but that is not the point.
 

Hitech

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Re: does your insurance company have to pay you?

...If your scenerio includes one of these exclusions then they don't have to pay. It's a simple as that.
No it is not. They do sometimes put in exclusions that won't hold up in court. Just because they say they don't have to pay you if something happens doesn't make it true.
 

jay_merrill

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Re: does your insurance company have to pay you?

Freddyray, I think the major problem here is that you apparently don't understand much about contract law. An insurance policy is nothing more than an agreement between two people/entities to do certain things under certain circumstances. As such, both parties have a responsibility to "perform" as stipulated in the agreement.

The problems arise when one party disputes the performance of the other. In the case that you have been referring to, the insurance company is assuming that the insured is in violation of the terms of the agreement, by stealing his own boat. The problem is that they have no legitimate reason to believe that, and have no evidence to support their supposition.

So, we get to the question of whether or not they "have" to pay the insured. Unless he has failed to meet the legitimate terms of the agreement, yes, they do have to pay. Notice that I said legitimate terms of the agreement. Insurance companies are famous for putting all sorts of BS into contracts so that they can avoid payment of claims. They do it all the time. The problem, however, is that mere inclusion of something in a contract does not make it enforceable. If any given clause in contrary to law in the applicable state, its worthless.

If a clause is overly vague, it can also be worthless. In the case you have been referring to, the insurance company has said that the insured has to "cooperate" in an investigation of a claim. What does that mean? What is the exact definition of cooperate? Where is the line between reasonable investigation and intrusion into personal information v. having an insurance company going on a fishing expedition for the purpose of avoiding a rightful claim.

The answer to those questions is not provided by either party, if they are not able to reach it jointly. Since we are talking about a civil matter, it goes to civil court. At that point, the insurance company will either try to settle the matter out of court, which is a joint resolution of the problem, or it will attempt to obtain a summary judgement in its own favor. Failing resolution in one of these two ways, the matter will most likely end up in front of a jury. In that case, the person who "has" to do something, will most likely be the one who is seen by the jury as being unreasonable and not in compliance with the agreement. As I said in the other thread, if it is the insurance company that is seen as being "the bad guy," their obstinance will most likely cost them dearly. They won't end up just paying the claim because the norm in such situations, is for the plaintiff to go for cost of legal representation, court costs, expenses, and damages.

The bottom line is that the insurer doesn't get to just decide it isn't going to pay, and it doesn't matter what nifty little trap doors they've written into the contract. The insured has a right to sue, and if the matter gets that far, he has a right to put the issue in front of a jury. If that jury agrees that the insurance company has not met its obligations, they will find in favor of the plaintiff and the insurance company will have to pay. Barring an appeal, its a done deal - they insurance company must pay up.
 

freddyray21

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Re: does your insurance company have to pay you?

I do understand contract law. I also understand that there are exclusions that will not hold up in court. I also understand there are exclusions that will. My only argument here is that there are legitimate reasons where an insurance company can avoid paying. I am not saying that they will in the instance in the other thread. It was stated by some that the insurance company has to pay. I was only pointing out that is not true all the time. It is a simple case of logic. If there is one instance in the world where a company has a legitimate hold up in court reason to not pay then the statement "they always have to pay" is false.
 

NSBCraig

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Re: does your insurance company have to pay you?

Hey this thread is great.

I moved in with my girl friend a little while back and she's always asking me what I'm doing when I'm on this forum.

She's a commercial insurance agent who insures half the businesses in town and even whole counties.

This made her practically cry!

No they don't have to pay you, no matter what and yes you are responsible for your negligence.

Too funny.

Anyway thanks for getting her interested in the forum.:)
 

freddyray21

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Re: does your insurance company have to pay you?

The bottom line is that the insurer doesn't get to just decide it isn't going to pay, and it doesn't matter what nifty little trap doors they've written into the contract. The insured has a right to sue, and if the matter gets that far, he has a right to put the issue in front of a jury. If that jury agrees that the insurance company has not met its obligations, they will find in favor of the plaintiff and the insurance company will have to pay. Barring an appeal, its a done deal - they insurance company must pay up.

the other side of this case is being ignored there are times when the jury agrees with the insurance company. I never once said that the insurance company can decide not to pay and that's that. That is what courts are for. I only said that there are times when they do not have to pay and it does hold up in court.
 

Druta

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Re: does your insurance company have to pay you?

Ok while on here I would like some advice please
when looking to insure a boat what kinda of things do I need to watch out for or not list. like is it cheaper to have it in a slip , on the trailer in the yard or at my home

what companies have have better deals?
 

jay_merrill

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Re: does your insurance company have to pay you?

I absolutely agree that juries sometimes find in favor of an insurance company. If the insured is, in fact, engaging in fraud, the jury should find in favor of the insurance company. The insured who is trying to rip them off, should also pay a heavy price. Aside from any criminal problems that he or she might face, that person should have to pay the insurance company for its legal expenses, etc.

That is not the same thing as an insurance company just deciding that it doesn't want to pay a claim because it suspects something. If you accuse someone of criminal wrongdoing, the burden of proof is on you. That person has no legal obligation to help you prove your assertion and, should you fail to do that, he/she has a legal and moral right to "spank you" in civil court.

The reason why insurance companies get away with making unreasonable demands on their insured is because, most of the time, those persons don't have an ability to suffer financially, while the insurer stalls or tried to get out of a claim. To the insurance company, its a numbers game. Simply put, they know that most people will cave in and give them whatever they want because the have bills to pay, including the note on the insured item.

So, we are right back where we started from. If you think that the insurance industry does not engage in this sort of stuff, you are naive. Its not a one way street and, yes, insureds do play a lot of games too. In the end, what should prevail is truth, and to some extent, reasonable behavior.

I will contrast the case that we are really talking about (the boat theft) with something that I read in my local paper today. It seems that a nice house, which was under construction and not completed, burned down in a trendy neighborhood yesterday. The police immediately found signs of arson and an investigation has been ordered. The first thing that will happen is that a fire department arson investigator will take the case.

In this circumstance, I'm sure the insurer will withhold payment until the investigation is complete. If so, I don't blame them. There is actual evidence suggesting that a crime has been committed and that evidence comes from not only a reliable third party, but from a legal authority. Once again, its about fact and reasonable behavior, and the pay/no pay decision is based upon something real.
 

bliss

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Re: does your insurance company have to pay you?

I am a retired insurance company senior vp who spent the last 20 years of my career as an independent broker and consultant. My clients included major airlines, law firms, manufacturers, etc., etc.
A great deal of the above is inaccurate and should under no circumstances be considered reliable. Get thee to a knowledgable experienced insurance broker , consultant or agent just as fast as you can. You'll be happier and better informed
Good luck!
 

freddyray21

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Re: does your insurance company have to pay you?

I think much of the fault is mine in that I did not make my initial statement clear.

It was said in another thread that the insurance company always has to pay you if you make a claim. I asserted not always. There are legitimate reasons for them to not have to pay you. Ones that will hold up in court.

Each of the examples I brought out in this thread were legitimate reasons that held up in court.
 

bliss

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Re: does your insurance company have to pay you?

freddyray21, do you really believe negligence is a defence against property or liability claims?
 

NSBCraig

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Re: does your insurance company have to pay you?

freddyray21, do you really believe negligence is a defence against property or liability claims?

What's that mean? Are you reading his posts?

He's simply pointing out that you don't get paid just because you have insurance.

Thought you were an insurance senior vp?

Did the company you say you worked for pay EVERY claim that was submitted?

What's that of course not?

It'd been others that posted silly things like you can be ignorant and negligent!
 

bliss

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Re: does your insurance company have to pay you?

It doesn't "mean" much. It was a question. I'm sorry I pushed your buttons.
 

NSBCraig

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Re: does your insurance company have to pay you?

You didn't push my buttons your just not making much sense.

Did your company pay EVERY claim it received or not?
 

freddyray21

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Re: does your insurance company have to pay you?

it depends on the situation, not always, but negligence can be a defense for an insurance company not to pay. Take the tree example quoted earlier. The guy was told by an expert that the tree was bad and could fall down and cause damage. It did and the insurance company refused to pay for the damage. He took it to court and lost.
 

bliss

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Re: does your insurance company have to pay you?

Of course not. But I would make the point that, for the most part, negligence is a poor defense against a property or casualty claim. For a carrier to deny a claim they usually need something more in play than ordinary negligence.

Merry Christmas!
 

NSBCraig

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Re: does your insurance company have to pay you?

Of course not. !


O.K. but isn't that the point he's trying to make.

I just don't get why people are on him for stating something as obvious as insurance companies don't always pay.

They don't and arguing about the specifics doesn't matter.

They don't pay every claim no matter what.
 

freddyray21

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Re: does your insurance company have to pay you?

many insurance claims are paid because the cost of proving yourself right in court exceeds the value of the claim. Of course I am only talking here of claims where the insurance company has a valid reason for not paying the claim. It is simply not worth it to them to take everyone of these to court. In the case of large claims they are going to dig a little deeper as financially it works for them to do so.
 

kaferhaus

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Re: does your insurance company have to pay you?

Well I've tried to stay out of these threads but too much misinformation is being bantered about..

I'm a insurance adjuster, have been for 26yrs. I work for a very large company that anyone with an IQ over 20 would recognize.

I have never met an adjuster who went into a claim with any intent of denying it. Denying a claim is a big "hassle" for the adjuster and adds to his workload tremendously.

A few "facts" about adjusters.

NO COMPANY pays bonuses to adjusters based upon their ability or success in denying claims, not one. What a PR nightmare that would be.

Our instructions from upper management are to pay any legitimate claimant every nickel he/she is owed and not one nickle more.

Certain very narrow issues of "negligence" can lead to a claim being denied. However this is very, very rare. In the case of the insured knowing a tree was a hazard and continuing to park something within it's range of falling IS one such case. Policies state this very clearly.

Thefts of big ticket items.... are always investigated before any payment is made. While true that most of these claims are in fact legitimate as many as 15% are not. That adds up to billions of dollars every year. That cost would have to be transferred to the company's other customers in increased premiums. People who are in financial difficulty, have criminal records or criminal associations are much more likely to commit this type of fraud. The pay now and investigate later thing is long over and for good reason... the money is almost never recovered.

Many big ticket item "thefts" are arranged.... and sometimes won't even be reported until the item is actually "missing" for a week or more giving the "thief" ample time to strip the item or ship it overseas.

Arson.... same as above. Homeowners or business people with debt problems are much more likely to commit these offenses.

Another poster mentioned the drunk driving thing... there is a clause in EVERY automobile policy that states there will be no payment made if the loss is caused by the insured committing a criminal act. They will pay for the damage you do someone else's property but not to your own.

The "bilge pump" thing.... likely more to that story than is being told. The adjuster may have talked to people at the marina who may have told him things that were contray to what the boat owner told him.... Or the owner himself may have told the adjuster something that led to the claim being denied. (see the post about the guy who told the adjuster he knew the tree was hollow.....).

I don't think I've denied more than a dozen claims in all these years and I've settled thousands upon thousands of claims. My life is much easier and less complicated when there's no reason to doubt the circumstances. Every adjuster I know feels the same way.

And as a side note only one of the few claims I ever denied was settled in the insured's favor. All contested the denials and a few of them ended up in jail before it was all over with.

Further, I know that a large percentage of insureds lie to me when I'm investigating their claim... claim they lost things that they never owned, or the TV that was burned to cinders was a $3,000.00 plasma when it wasn't... that the car that was stolen had a trunk full of christmas presents in it along with the reciepts (in sept...)...

If I don't feel I can prove they're lying I pay them. But I do put these doubts in my offical notes.... "footprint of the melted carcass where the TV was does not match claimant's statement".... etc. etc.

Those are the people that get "black listed".... gee I wonder why.

The vast majority of folks are honest and just want their claim settled fairly. Those folks get prompt and fair settlements.

I understand the guy not wanting to give his financial informatin to the insurance company... but is his attorney too stupid (or too greedy) not to realize that once suit is filed the clients records will be made available through court order????

The insured in this "boat theft" case is the one dragging this out. Even if his records show he's in financial difficulty that alone will not preclude his being paid... but imagine this... he is in financial difficulty and his records show an unexplainable large deposit around the time the boat goes missing???



I'll not get into any arguements with anyone over this... but the facts are usually much different when you have 2 sides of the story.
 
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