De-Lam

Whidbey

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Joined
Jul 10, 2012
Messages
62
IMGA0753.jpgIMGA0752.jpgIMGA0756.jpgIMGA0755.jpgIMGA0754.jpgHey Ya'll,

Above the deck all around the boat, I have delamination of the white finish, the bulk head and bracing tabbing, and the top to hull tabbing that is over the rivets. When I was getting the mechanics right, I had the gas tank hatch off and the stringers and transom are good fiberglass with no issues. The forward of the cuddy is thin in the hull and I can't imagine that that's ok given the floating logs and stumps (dead heads) we have here in puget sound. So I want to fix the tabbing and beef her up. Please tell me what I should use. I have my ideas from reading on here, but would like input for confirmation. I'm a good carpenter, so I get the prep work and will do a good job. The boat is my avatar. I don't mind spending the money to do it right and long term, I'm already into her for a keeper anyway.
 
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Grandad

Lieutenant Commander
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Jun 7, 2011
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1,504
Re: De-Lam

Hi Whidbey, Nice looking hull, but did you say rivets?
 
Joined
Feb 17, 2012
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Re: De-Lam

the white coming off is because it was not applied correctly but what is more concerning is picture 2 where the fiberglass is de-laminating and it looks like fresh resin has run down over the white. Can you tell us what this area is?
 

GT1000000

Rear Admiral
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Jul 13, 2011
Messages
4,916
Re: De-Lam

Hard to tell, but it looks like an attempt was made to add a layer or two of glass plus possibly a gel coat or paint on top of an improperly prepared surface...meaning the original surface was not ground down enough to expose a porous layer for the new materials to adhere to to...possibly an attempt at replacing the deck...???
If that is the case, the entire delamination must be removed, the surface of the old glass needs to be ground down sufficiently to "open it up" and make a tooth for the new lamination/tabbing...
I too, am confused by your statement about the "rivets"?
You can "beef" up any areas you want by doing the same procedure...
Grind the surface, clean with acetone, lay down a layer of CSM + 1708...each layer will build the thickness approximately 1/16"-1/8".
Another question is...
You mentioned you did some work with the fuel tank?
Is the structure of this boat made of wood covered in fiberglass?
 

Bob_VT

Moderator & Unofficial iBoats Historian
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26,048
Re: De-Lam

I would be doing "exploratory surgery" and find out the conditions of the structure and to investigate for hidden wetness.

Water from the inside will create de-lamination :( Time for bore holes, foam samples, drill holes and close investigation. I would even go as far as having it weighed.
 
Joined
Feb 17, 2012
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2,906
Re: De-Lam

rivets are in picture 4. you can see what I believe is the rear side of the rivet but theres no context of where in the boat the picture is looking at. (maybe the back of the rub rail?)
 

Whidbey

Seaman
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Jul 10, 2012
Messages
62
Re: De-Lam

Thanks for the reply guys. The rivets are attaching the top to the hull and are then tabbed over...this looks like it may be a challenge due to the prep work of grinding the approx 6" tabbing off and pre-fitting the replacement fiber material (what material to use here??) with rivet holes prior to wetting. Yes, the PO tabbed the bed deck to the hull and then gel coated....I will remove the deck prior to working on the hull. The good news is that the boat is solid fiberglass meaning the deck, stringers and transom are all fiberglass...so no wood in the main construction. It is one of the last Glasplys built in 91. The components are solid, the assembly and prep-work were not good.

"layer of CSM + 1708...each layer will build the thickness approximately 1/16"-1/8" This is the info I'm after.
So
1-good prep work (all removed to the original components and then tooth grip grind and clean) including the plywood sub deck that the cusions would lay on, if I had cusions:) which I don't and don't want as this is a fishing cruiser:/
2-Polyester, Vinlester, or thin epoxy saturated CSM and then 1708---repeat three to four times??
3-Then put 3/4" plywood deck back in and tab to hull. (this is a subfloor deck that is above the deep v hull in front. The main glass deck terminates approximately 8' from the front of the boat to a cross fiberglass bulkhead. I can draw it if confusing, but it's pretty much standard for a cuddy cruiser style boat. Moisture may have factored, but I'm inclined to believe bad prep work and procedure at assembly. When I had the main deck sealed hatch off while re-doing the hoses from the tank, I inspected the hull and it is solid and thick in that area.

On the CSM and 1708, can that be done in pieces or long say like 8" strips or is it important to fit whole pieces as much as possible?

"I would be doing "exploratory surgery" and find out the conditions of the structure and to investigate for hidden wetness.

Water from the inside will create de-lamination Time for bore holes, foam samples, drill holes and close investigation. I would even go as far as having it weighed."

The only parts that I have not seen are the edges, meaning the belly that contains the gas tank is about 30" wide and has good solid glass stringers that run bow to stern. There are weep holes between the hull and stringers. I've read that most boats this size 22' didn't have foam as it wasn't USCG required and so most builders didn't do it. I do think the she has dried up in the 1.5yrs I've had it under cover. Anyway, like I say most of it is accesable, excepts about a foot and a half each side to the about 8' shy of the bow.
 

Whidbey

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Jul 10, 2012
Messages
62
Re: De-Lam

the white coming off is because it was not applied correctly but what is more concerning is picture 2 where the fiberglass is de-laminating and it looks like fresh resin has run down over the white. Can you tell us what this area is?

The fresh resin is where the PO glassed and tabbed the deck above where the cuddy is. The fiberglass is where the bulkhead that the main deck terminates at. The delam is the tabbing from the bulkhead to the hull. I'll do a drawing. Thanks!!

Boat Structure.jpg
 
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Whidbey

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Jul 10, 2012
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Re: De-Lam

Also in determining which product to use (poly, vinyl, or epoxy) keep in mind the beating it will take and flex due to the salt water chop we get. Thanks Guys!!
 

GT1000000

Rear Admiral
Joined
Jul 13, 2011
Messages
4,916

GT1000000

Rear Admiral
Joined
Jul 13, 2011
Messages
4,916
Re: De-Lam

Also in determining which product to use (poly, vinyl, or epoxy) keep in mind the beating it will take and flex due to the salt water chop we get. Thanks Guys!!

Properly done, polyester resin will hold up just fine and it's the least expensive...Your choice if you want to use the more expensive materials, but a lot of ocean going boats are built using just the poly...It all boils down to proper prep and installation...
 

Whidbey

Seaman
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Jul 10, 2012
Messages
62
Re: De-Lam

Since this is my first glass repair and since my wife and daughter want to participate, and I want no chance of a fail since we are keeping this boat for the long haul...

I'm planning to use 635 THIN EPOXY SYSTEM with about 3 layers of 1708. Of course start by doing a fantastic prep job. I'll just tab the cuddy deck back on with 1708 tape and then paint that area to kinda match the gel on the plywood. Like I say, this seems like a really good way to get a secondary bond and since I'm adding bulk for ice breaker strength, I don't want to chance not getting a good initial bond.

Does anyone have issue with this regarding potential problems?
 

Woodonglass

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Dec 29, 2009
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25,928
Re: De-Lam

You don't use 1708 with epoxy. The CSM that is stitched to the fabric is not needed. I'd recommend using a couple of layers of 8.5 oz E-Glass. You'll actually get a stronger bond doing that with a bit more bulk. Grind the area down to good fresh glass and do a final clean up with Acetone. I think I'd use the Medium Epoxy and might add a bit of cabosil to thicken it for the vertical application. It takes a while for it to tack up and you'll be "BabySitting" it so it won't run down the sides. But Hey, that's just me.;):D
 

Whidbey

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Jul 10, 2012
Messages
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Re: De-Lam

I got geared up with epoxy and cloth and really started looking and researching. When I was out this last season, I could see and hear the cabinet rubbing the side of the cap (see picture). 1.1.jpg It only moves about a 1/8" when anchored and in current and 3' waves but it does move. After the research, I'm convinced that the hull liner (deck) is free floating and is attached at the hull sides (it may be resting on the stringers) and moves side to side ever so slightly. There are no cracks in the liner, but the forward bulkhead that it terminates against and at the transom where it terminates, the tabbing has failed. The forward tabbing, shown in my first post, is the forward bulkhead on the bow side and parts directly connected to it.

Since I love my boat and have put a lot into it regarding mechanical stuff etc...., I'm inclined to fix it right. I'm thinking the liner has to come out and be replaced with a ply and glass deck. At the same time I can replace the stock aluminum tank and improve the structure below, prior to installing a new deck that will be properly installed and then stiffeners from new deck along sides to cap. I'm thinking my epoxy and cloth for the wood and the good poly, mat, 1708 for improving lay up. I know I'm in for it, but can't think of a better and permanent fix. Plus I'll be able to see underneath. I don't think the boat has been used that much prior to me, as the area that is rubbing is not warn much and is barely noticeable when knowing where to look due to sound and eye witness.

So, I'll post pics as I un-deck and probably won't start re-assembly and glass work until spring when it's warmer. I have a car port, but it is open to the air. I'll look for any advice I can get along the way. Thanks folks! Duane
 

chriscraft254

Commander
Joined
Jun 4, 2011
Messages
2,445
Re: De-Lam

Hey man, when taking pictures of the areas of concern, it helps us help you when you take a pic from farther away to give us a better understanding of the area we are looking at. Then post the up close pics. This will help us get a better idea of the layout of your boat. ;) Budd
 

Whidbey

Seaman
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Jul 10, 2012
Messages
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Re: De-Lam

Copy that, I just opened a photobucket account, understand that's the trick to larger pictures. The ones I uploaded were to large, so I cropped them, can understand it's hard to get context. I'll work on that. Thanks, Duane
 

Whidbey

Seaman
Joined
Jul 10, 2012
Messages
62
Re: De-Lam


This is the cabinet that is shown in post #16. See how it's screwed to the liner.

Showing how the liner is attached to the hull side and contours toward the bow. It steps down for the head and terminates directly behind the head, about 4' shy of the bow.

Liner terminates at transom, where some of the tabbing from liner to transom has failed. Also shows how liner is attached at hull sides. The liner is glassed to the top of the motor well.


Just to show what the boat looks like.

It makes sense to me now how the liner is responsible for the failed tabbing and the shuddering feeling when hitting a wave in rough water. This article really brought it together for me The hull, on the outside, shows no signs of flex and is very solid underneath. I'm afraid the movement will cause more failure if not addressed. I hate to, just want to fish, but it is what it is....I think:/ That's why I'm posting this stuff up to ya'll.
 
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