Complete novice wondering about what to look for in a boat (offshore California)

acarleson

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Hello there! I am a novice boater (i.e. basically zero knowledge) wondering what to look for in a boat that can go ~8 miles off the coast of Central California. This is a bit of an odd situation, so before I put my foot in my mouth and make it look like I am being totally unsafe, maybe I should explain :)

I am working on a grant to do research on pinniped (seals, sea lions, etc.) movement near the Gulf of the Farallones off the coast of California?basically, the section of open ocean that is right around San Francisco, although I will likely be just a little south. Part of the grant will be for a research vessel, and it would be used mostly for transportation... we'd spend a few hours at a time out there, but wouldn't be sleeping overnight or anything. We would budget for an experienced boater to do the actual piloting/driving, but since we don't know if we will get the grant, and don't know which university/institution we would be operating through, we haven't started looking for one yet. For this grant, since we're applying through a private institution, we need to budget for our own vessel (liability purposes, I would guess) and we need to be fairly specific about what kind of vessel, and how much of our budget we needs to be allocated for that purpose.

I hear that this stretch of coast can be particularly treacherous, so I want to make sure we're well equipped. While we would not go out on large, stormy days, in a perfect world, we'd be out 3/4/5 days a week, at least. We will have the luxury of somewhat picking our days, but we won't necessarily be able to wait for a month for the one perfect day, so we're looking for a fairly robust vehicle.

To that end, I have a few questions. It'll probably be pretty clear that I've started doing my own research but still don't know enough to ask intelligent questions (that wonderful stage where you've done just enough research to almost sound like you know what you're talking about, but still ask dumb questions), so please bear with me!

1) Just ballpark... what are we looking at in terms of budget? If I'm being honest, we'd probably just turn to craigslist or something (yep. When you're begging for grant money, things need to be as cheap as possible), so... I'm afraid to even throw out a number. Just looking for a very general sense so I can put something down in the budget.

2) What are we looking at in terms of size? This will be important for storage considerations, but also, we'd ideally fit 4-6 of us on this boat at any given time. I think the smaller the better, but I also understand that there's a correlation between boat size and ability to handle open water, so I assume there's a minimum viable length we'd be looking at? I also understand that people go out great distances on things like jet skis and zodiacs. Is this risky, or is this normal? Zodiacs seem nice because they're inflatable and so I assume they're basically unsinkable.... but they're also tiny.

3) When it comes time of the actual purchasing, what things should we be looking for? I am understanding that hull shape plays a big role in ability to handle open waters, but I don't necessarily understand what to look for. Is there a minimum viable deadrise angle? What about freeboard? As I've been looking online, it seems that new boat manufacturers list their bow deadrise and stern deadrise, which are often different. Is one more important than the other? I'm generally gathering that stern deadrise is, at least, very important, so is there a minimum angle I should be looking for there?

4) Materials. I see that fiberglass boats are far more common, but I also have been reading things like, "how to buy a used boat" and a lot of the articles talk about things like stringer rot and all kinds of things that I just wouldn't know how to look for. I feel safer looking at aluminum boats, because I feel like there's less to be "hidden"?either it floats with no leaks, or it doesn't. Is that just me being paranoid? Might I be fine with a fiberglass boat?

5) Engine. It seems that twin engines are a must for safety, so we'd be going that route for sure. Is there a minimum horsepower that is recommended? We certainly don't need to go fast, at all... if we could get up to like 5 miles an hour, that'd be great.

6) Anything else that I've neglected to ask? As I said, I basically know nothing. My ideal from this post would be to get a broad overview of what to look for, and then start looking, and then be able to set out a fairly accurate description of the vessel we will likely end up purchasing.

Thank you so much! This seems like a fantastic community, and your advice will be greatly appreciated.

-Amy
 

Bayou Dave

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First off :welcome: to iboats. You will find a lot of knowledgeable people on this site. I don't have the answers to your questions, but I am sure others will be along shortly to help you out.
 

acarleson

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Thank you, DRS! I have been digging around the site for a while, everyone seems great :)
 

Scott Danforth

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welcome aboard

first, when looking at used boats, its condition....condition....condition.

get the boat surveyed.

here is a link on what to look for when inspecting a boat http://forums.iboats.com/forum/gene...eeding-help-buying-a-boat-a-buyer-s-checklist

however in your case, going 8 miles off shore, I would suggest the following:

newer boat (2005 or newer) with twin motors as you mentioned. you want redundancy, or you want to be an olympic swimmer. for your needs, you have to determine if I/O, inboards, outboards or what will fit your needs. with 4-5 people on including gear, your looking above 24' to be practical. I myself would be looking for about a 30' fishing boat with a fly bridge. you automatically get twins, a flybridge for obervation and most likely it will be outfit with radar, sonar, radios, etc. if you play your cards right, you may be lucky finding a charter captain that has a spare boat and some time. then you get the boat and captain. leasing may actually be the way to go since your new to the whole boating thing

having just come back from Marina Del Rey, and the weather out there, I know the water can be rough. so you want more deadrise than less for rough water.

you will also want a fair amount of freeboard

regarding hull material, fiberglass vs aluminum comes back to condition....condition.....condition...

As far as budget goes in a boat that you want to purchase. take your budget you think you want to spend on your needs and automatically double it. if you spend to little on a boat, you will uncover issues (back to condition). this way you have left over cash for repairs

dont forget the towing insurance, PFD's, etc.
 

GA_Boater

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How long is the research study?

Have you thought about using a guide with his or her boat. That would relieve you of most liability and cares about choosing the right boat with maintenance. And no worries about selling the boat at the end of the study?
 

alldodge

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Howdy

I would not suggest buying a boat, my suggestion would be to hire a boat and crew to that has been running the water for a very long time. Having an experienced boat captain and crew will know what to do and how to do it, before, during and after the ride. This way its a set cost per ride making it easy to budget, and a whole bunch safer. The problem is finding an experienced crew that doesn't already have a good means of making a living. Fishing charters may be the way to go, they charge by the ride
 

acarleson

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Thank you all for your thoughts! I'll try to answer as many of the questions as I can :)

GA Boater: The study will be at least 3 years, and I'm hoping to get funding for more at the end of the term. And, in a perfect world, this project would last forever, and when I die, my apprentice would take over for me!
So, we have thought about hiring a guide, but over the at least three years (and, realistically, while I doubt I'll keep getting funding until I die, I'm thinking it'll be around 10 years), we would be bleeding money. We thought it would be much better to buy a boat, especially since we'd be taking it out 3-5 days a week, and we'd probably need to equip it with a lot of stuff that probably isn't on your average boat (power, internet, shark cage, etc.). I also assume we'd donate the research vessel to our host institution when we're done!

The flip side of this is what AllDodge brings up. What I'm gathering from this is that you are suggesting that experience in that particular stretch of water is absolutely necessary for safety... our plan is to find someone who might be an experienced boater, but would be willing to pilot our research-specifc boat for those years. In the past, my colleagues have hired captains for ~3 month posts, and they've been okay in waters that they aren't necessarily familiar with (although, to be fair, not off the coast of San Francisco). Which leads me to to another question: is this stretch of water completely unsafe unless you've had tons of experience there? I don't think we can afford to hire on a captain AND a boat for 3+ years. We might be able to take on a few months, and bring our pilot along to get him/her familiar? Or are we talking years and years of experience?

Scott: Thanks for your detailed reply. What are you talking in terms of deadrise and freeboard? Also, more general questions.... I have been looking at some aluminum boats (nothing that would be in the budget, of course, but just trying to get a sense of what's out there). One of them (can't remember which one at the moment) mentioned that their boats are not at all like the cheap riveted boats others make. I'm seeing pretty large aluminum boats (like in the 24' range) that all seem to be riveted. Is a riveted boat completely out of the question here? Is there something I should be looking for?

Maybe I can walk you all through my thought process, and you can tell me if it's stupid or not :) Fiberglass is starting to scare me, because it seems like stringer rot is a huge problem that's easy to hide and will cost a fortune (not to mention time) to fix. So I'm thinking aluminum, mostly because of that, but also because, when I picture what we'll need, honestly all we need is a platform. We don't need seats, or anything comfortable or fancy or any bells and whistles. We need a platform that will get us there and back... most of our stuff is battery powered. I think about fiberglass boats and I'm seeing things like upholstered seats and roofs and cabins.... And then I see aluminum boats that are just empty save for a few bench seats. Most of them are small, but I would love to find a 25' or longer aluminum boat that is just.... empty. We'd honestly be fine with that. Most of the team has spent time in Antarctica or been out at sea before, and none of us need fancy. I picture aluminum boats as just more... stripped down. As in, we could buy fiberglass, but there are hidden things that could pop up, but with aluminum, I'm getting the sense that the test is, "does it leak?", and if it doesn't leak, we're good to go. Is this overly simplistic? Are there structural considerations with aluminum? If there are 24' aluminum boats out there, but they're riveted, does that mean that they just won't be strong enough to stand up to the pounding out there?

Another question... maybe I should have asked this first, but how bad IS the pounding out there, really?

Thanks SO SO MUCH for all the information thus far!!
 

GA_Boater

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How many crew members? 3 years and 3-5 trips per week - You might think about a more commercial type vessel instead of recreational.
 

alldodge

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I would seriously forget anything about 24 footer, your looking at a minimum IMO at a 32 footer
 

acarleson

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Thanks again for all the replies! I'm sure this will reveal my ignorance, but... when y'all are talking about length, what is going into that decision?

Is it more of a comfort thing? A longer boat is more comfortable? Fits more people? Or is it a safety thing?

Or is it actually a capability thing? A 20' boat simply can't make it out there? Not rated for a powerful enough engine? I'm sure it was to make a sale, but I spent the day calling boat dealers and more than a few suggested those hypalon 12-14' inflatable crafts (zodiacs). To be fair, I would call and let them recommend me a boat (they usually recommended something in the 20-25' range), and then when I would ask about a zodiac, they would say, "Oh, totally, that can absolutely make it out there. Totally unsinkable".

I take things like this from a salesman with a grain of salt, but it does make me curious about the WHY length is so important (yep. It's the scientist part of me?why? why? why??). I've also run across Boston Whalers?if I'm understanding correctly, they are foam and can't sink?

Again?this question will clearly just show how ignorant I am, but I'm legitimately curious.

Thank you, all!
 

brian4321

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I am by no means an expert, but I think what the other guys are trying to say is, if you're going to be going 8 miles out, 3-5 days a week you WILL eventually get caught in rough seas or storms , as those conditions can pop up quickly...A 24' aluminum boat or an inflatable zodiac will make it out there and back on a perfect day, but if you get caught in a storm or 5' waves you would more than likely capsize, so you need something bigger, heavier, more stable that has the capability of handling rough sea's... Just my 2?
 

alldodge

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Agree, brian4321 stated my thoughts. Its a safety thing, the ocean can get real rough real fast
 

GA_Boater

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Before any boat recommendations can be made, some things need to itemized;
  • How large a shark cage? You need secure deck space, so how much deck space will it occupy?
  • How much does the cage weigh? Will you need a crane or similar to launch and retrieve the cage?
  • How many people will be on the boat? You need space and shelter for them and it becomes more important if the seas are rough.
  • Will you need a generator for power? More weight to consider.
  • Diving gear? More weight and storage space needed.
  • Bathroom facilities for a mixed crew?
  • What else is needed?
As stated, first define your needs for crew and cargo, both weight and space, then advice for a boat that fits those needs can be given.

I have a feeling you will need a larger vessel than you think. Safety and comfort are very important or you will have trouble hanging on to your crew. My couple of pennies. :smile:
 

acarleson

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Hi all,
Thank you for all your advice. I appreciate the straightforward answers?I was definitely a little wary of salespeople, as I feel like they sometimes have other agendas to advance.

Again, I'll answer questions, but then I have more of my own :)

1) Our shark cage is small and collapsible. It's more for extra safety than because we think we'll be around sharks... we're certainly not targeting sharks, and if we think there's one around nobody is going into the water, but since we'll be around their prey we have to be aware that one could wander by. I can check the direct measurements shortly, but it's big enough for one diver and a camera when assembled, and when it's collapsed, I think it's about... 4 feet by 1 foot by 1 foot? It fits into a bag that was originally designed for one of those large, family camping tents. It's also open at the top, and we just lower it into the water by hand, so no pulling gear necessary. Now, of course, I'm realizing that I should have said all these things, because how would y'all know that I didn't mean one of those giant commercial cages? Our is small, and just designed to let one person slip underwater. However, it's set up so that we have a "track" that it slides down on, and we would need to bolt that track to the side of the boat, so it would be hard to "rent" a boat and do things like that (we'd also want to bolt a lot of other things and otherwise modify the vessel). So, I think this got three questions in one! Cage is small and will not take up very much space at all. It's really just to get footage right next to the boat, and while it won't stop an attacking shark, it's designed to both give the diver a sense of security, and slow down any shark that happens to want to attack our diver, so that we have time to pull them back onto the boat, because they'll be right there.

2) I don't know exactly how many people. Our team is ~10, but only half of us max will be out at one time. Most of the time, it will be three people max: a pilot, and two researchers. However, there will be times when it would be nice to get 5-6 of us out at once, so I would say, any boat definitely needs to be comfortable for 3 people, and we could deal with being cramped a few times every few months if we need to squeeze 5 or 6 of us on? The core team is small, but we're collaborating, so if our colleagues ever want to fly in and spend a day or two collecting their own data... probably better to plan for 3 the overwhelming majority of the time (two of us and a pilot), but then 5-6 maybe 5/6/7 times a year or so.

3) We probably won't need a generator. If we did, it would be small, but for the most part, I think solar and battery will be the way to go.

4) We won't need more than 2 sets of dive gear on the boat 99% of the time. Mine all fits in a backpack (minus my tank), so that times two.... and then, rarely, one more set.

5) Bathrooms! I don't think bathrooms will be necessary. This is the kind of thing that maybe perfectly explains what I'm trying to describe, and doing a terrible job of expressing myself. We are a team of field workers?we're the data collectors who go out and observe the animals, as opposed to the (equally important) scientists who do much more academic lab work. All of us have spent months at a time living in the woods, or the snow, and things like bathrooms just aren't worth paying for. When I was talking about the aluminum/fiberglass distinction, I noticed that a lot of aluminum boats just don't have the infrastructure that fiberglass seems to have. Fiberglass boats seem to have "cabins" and "heads" and "decks" and stuff, whereas aluminum boats just seem to be simpler boats. Seats, and storage. I've worked with many of these team members before, and our bathroom system is a 5 gallon home depot bucket. You line it with a trash bag, and put some kitty litter in it, and you're good to go :) Which is my long-winded way of saying that we don't need a bathroom. We honestly need a platform that will get us there and back. And that's it. That being said, your point about shelter is well taken. I think if the shelter is for things like getting out of the sun or the wind, we'll be fine, but if it's more because, "if a big waves comes, you'll be swept out to sea unless you're inside a shelter", that's a whole different story.


So, I guess what I'm trying to say is, we need about enough space as your average 4-5 person boat might offer?we don't have much in the way of "gear" beyond what might be normal, but we WILL need to modify the craft, and will need to freedom to bolt, break, ruin, etc. this boat. We don't even need seats (although they would be nice!), we just need to get out there and back safely.

If you all don't mind, I have a few more questions:

First, thanks for the link to the boat. Unfortunately, that is something that is SO far above a reasonable ask for a grant as to have me worried. A quarter of a million dollars... I guess this is why I asked for ballpark numbers, because if I'm looking at a cost anywhere near there, this is just not feasible.
I'm wondering about something that was said earlier.... the idea that almost any craft could get out on a "perfect day". I'm now rethinking this project... since I haven't spent much time out west, I don't know how often these "perfect days" happen. Are we talking a few times a year? A few times a month? A few times a week? For example, there is no way we can afford a 250k commercial vessel. But we may be able to rewrite the grant for more of a.... like 4 year project, but collecting data less often. If we could get out 1-2 times a week fairly regularly, but extend the time, maybe that wouldn't totally screw with the results. That remains to be seen, but at the moment, I'm kind of grasping for anything possible, as there is honestly no way this grant will get approved if we will need a 250k boat.

Thanks again for all your input! Again, really appreciate the blunt feedback. If it can't happen, it can't happen... such is the life of us grant-writing science monkeys :)
 

southkogs

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Reading the topic: I would suggest taking your "boat guy" - and a couple of the team members - and looking at something like this boat: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/boa/5834577334.html

^^^ not necessarily suggesting THAT boat, but rather that style and size.

It's a walk-around cuddy cabin with Twin outboards. 28' should be plenty size to handle most days (though I'm not familiar with the area). If you were on the Gulf of Mexico, I'd say you could get away with something around 22' if you had to. I'm not sure what the Pacific would require most days.

Something you probably need to factor in - cost of ownership. Slip costs for parking the boat, maintenance, fuel, insurance, etc. Those are things that typically bite the budget more than even the cost of the boat.
 

brian4321

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Reading the topic: I would suggest taking your "boat guy" - and a couple of the team members - and looking at something like this boat: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/boa/5834577334.html

^^^ not necessarily suggesting THAT boat, but rather that style and size.

It's a walk-around cuddy cabin with Twin outboards. 28' should be plenty size to handle most days (though I'm not familiar with the area). If you were on the Gulf of Mexico, I'd say you could get away with something around 22' if you had to. I'm not sure what the Pacific would require most days.

Something you probably need to factor in - cost of ownership. Slip costs for parking the boat, maintenance, fuel, insurance, etc. Those are things that typically bite the budget more than even the cost of the boat.

+1.
 

Starcraft5834

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one of the best ?? and threads in a long time.... if your going to buy one and run on the ocean, I completely agree with those suggesting a 30 foot class boat....you just cant underestimate the importance of "larger matters", especially on the ocean, or any other really big body of water.... a mission like yours involves lots of gear, extra room is highly recommended. "perfect days" on very large bodies of water are rare... make plans for a normal days.... what ever you buy, it needs to be reliable, with a backup source of power.. even a 50 horse "kicker" would be prudent to install... you can get in safely..
 

JoLin

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Gotta ask... is everyone on your crew a novice? Do you have any experienced boaters aboard? Gotta tell you, if the answer is no, I think you're putting the cart before the horse. These guys ain't kidding when they tell you that for a crew of 3-6, a small shark cage and a bunch of gear, you'll need at least a 30'er. With a really big cockpit, like a sportfisherman or a dive boat. Docking and piloting a 30 footer in less than ideal offshore conditions takes experience. For one thing, you're looking at 6+ TONS of a vehicle that has no brakes, is pushed around by wind, waves and current, operating in a medium that affords no traction. Think back to your basic physics classes and the relationships among mass, speed and momentum/inertia. 6 tons moving at a speed of 3 mph generates an inertial force of... enough to do a heckuva lot of damage when you hit something trying to dock.

Aside from the purchase price, you're looking at substantial charges for docking, maintenance and repairs. Tell us what you think your budget will be for purchase and initial repairs, and for ongoing operating expenses (dockage, fuel, maintenance).
 
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