center console

[37pro]

I am looking for some opinions on what kind of water a 16' to 18' center cosole could handle. I am interested in several hull types like aluminum deep v like a starcraft, fiberglass v hull like a mako, and carolina skiff or boston whaler style "flat front" (not sure what else to call it).
I would like to be able to go into small lakes for general fishing and to the bay for strippers and blues. What I am conserned about is how far out of the bay could these boats go? Thanks in advance, Eric

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: center console

they all depend on the conditions of the day.

 

[dingbat]

Re: center console

Yep, it depnds on the conditions.

Some days no problems. Other days, you couldn't pay me to leave the dock in a boat that size.

 

[high'n'dry]

Re: center console

I am looking for some opinions on what kind of water a 16' to 18' center cosole could handle. I am interested in several hull types like aluminum deep v like a starcraft, fiberglass v hull like a mako, and carolina skiff or boston whaler style "flat front" (not sure what else to call it).
I would like to be able to go into small lakes for general fishing and to the bay for strippers and blues. What I am conserned about is how far out of the bay could these boats go? Thanks in advance, Eric

We take our 19 foot BW Outrage over the horizon regularly. The Whaler in a 17 foot Montauk, old or new, would be your boat. Very capable for a small boat offshore. The aluminum cans like a StarCraft et al I would not take off the mill pond.

 

[37pro]

Re: center console

could you give me an idea of conditions, are we talking 1'-2', 2'-3', 3'-4' or sunny no wind.
In these "conditions" is this just a rough hard ride or do you mean green water over the bow and elsinko to the bottomo. Thanks, Eric


p.s. I will look into the montauk, any other suggestions would be helpful. Thanks again, Eric

 

[high'n'dry]

Re: center console

could you give me an idea of conditions, are we talking 1'-2', 2'-3', 3'-4' or sunny no wind.
In these "conditions" is this just a rough hard ride or do you mean green water over the bow and elsinko to the bottomo. Thanks, Eric


p.s. I will look into the montauk, any other suggestions would be helpful. Thanks again, Eric

Any 17 footer in 3-4 actual seas will be a rough, wet ride. The Whaler will bring you back. The Montauk is a known good handling and seaworthy sled. You might also look at older Outrage 18s. If we are talking new the current Outrage 190 or Montauk 170/190.

Yes, I have had green water over the bow more than a few times in really bad conditions and thunderstorms. I prefer not to test such conditions on purpose and the older I get the more wary I become.

Above 20 feet there are other boats I like more than a Whaler, below 20 feet there are very few small boats that can do any better than a Whaler and most are far worse.

None of the tin boats like StarCraft would I dare head to sea in, now there are some welded plate hulled boats I really like but most are bigger than what you mention, 17 to 18 feet.

For fishing in a large bay with potential for rough water and the desire to run out near shore on good days, the Montauk 17 or 170 should do fine.

 

[mikeroche]

Re: center console

i had a mr170 starcraft cc i went into boston and cape cod with out a problem 3-4 footers very deep v, whalers ride hard,the best way is ride in different ones so you can see for yourself,all boats can be nice,all boats can sink..

 

[dingbat]

Re: center console

You didn't say where you are but on the Chesapeake a 3-4' "chop" is the point where most, including 40' work boats, will stay at the dock. It's just not woth getting beat up for.

A 2-3' chop is the point where turning "green" is almost a given for unseasoned people. 3' is getting to the point that it' hard to stand up in a 24' boat.

Not going to catch me out there in a 17' Center Console under either of those condtions.

 

[high'n'dry]

Re: center console

i had a mr170 starcraft cc i went into boston and cape cod with out a problem 3-4 footers very deep v, whalers ride hard,the best way is ride in different ones so you can see for yourself,all boats can be nice,all boats can sink..

I am sorry, a Boston Whaler CANNOT sink, it is impossible. It might capsize but it CANNOT sink. There are several other well known brands of boats that are also unsinkable. UNSINKABLE means exactly that, cannot sink--freaking period. Yep, a 17 foot boat will ride hard in 2 to 4 seas close.

The 4 foot seas, close and wind blowing the tops off, that is a day to stay home even in larger boats much less a 17 footer of any sort. But 4 foot swells, long period, that is just fun.

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: center console

First, are you asking about safety, survival or comfort? If the latter you won't go out at all. Safety would be the whaler or skiff, or a V will a good spoon like a Parker. Survival= whaler.

A major factor on whether a boat can handle conditions is the knowledge and skill of the captain.

a 17-19' center console fiberglass is a versitle boat fo rbay conditions--that's why they are popular. But be smart--don't go out in bad conditions; jus tbe able to handle them if you hae to coming home.

 

[marine4003]

Re: center console

I dont know how many times ive said this on these forums, i'll say it again...its not as important to ask what the boat can handle...as it is, what can the operator handle.
In most cases with CC's you have a self bailing cockpit,and foam in the hull on better boats,so the chances of sinking are reduced and in older MAKO's and in Boston Whaler,there's so much urethane foam in the hull...it wont sink,but it can make for a hairy ride. So instead of looking at the performance of the craft..ask how much experience does one have in heavy seas conditions.

 

[Philster]

Re: center console

I am sorry, a Boston Whaler CANNOT sink, it is impossible. It might capsize but it CANNOT sink. There are several other well known brands of boats that are also unsinkable. UNSINKABLE means exactly that, cannot sink--freaking period. Yep, a 17 foot boat will ride hard in 2 to 4 seas close.

The 4 foot seas, close and wind blowing the tops off, that is a day to stay home even in larger boats much less a 17 footer of any sort. But 4 foot swells, long period, that is just fun.

Once below the surface of the water, the boat is sunk. It won't go to the bottom, but by many definitions, and for all intents and purposes, the boat is sunk. Submerged engines, hulls, fuel and controls won't take you home. Basically, a submerged Boston Whaler is a big flotation device that you can try to hold on to once she goes under. It won't go to the bottom - true. This is better than having nothing to hold onto, and it can help you be spotted, but you best have a PFD on. Some boat surveyors love to tell people that Whalers need all that foam because some of their designs lack true ocean designs (not the best transom configs) and take on too much water (this is the tougher side of reviews for some Whalers. Research as you would like).

And it is very true about the operator/captain: I have been on very large boats built for offshore fishing with "captains" who had no instinct or inherent sense of safety and it was terrifying. They drove into waves and took on water with each strike, despite the opportunity to adjust the course slightly and take on no blue water. Shivering fisherman, and hour from home and a bilge pump working to drain the battery and keep the vessel afloat, just because someone could not figure out how to play the action of the sea and the wind... and no am't of explaining seemed to penetrate their head.

I've been in 18' open bow boats in similar conditions as a passenger or operator, and the rhythm of the course and action over each wave actually got boring and uneventful.

 

[DukesFin]

Re: center console

It's all about the captain... The captain will know when to go and when to stay on the hill.

Should the captain be caught off-guard by rough weather, he or she will know what to do, how to handle the boat and get him/herself back to the hill safely and without destroying the vessel.

You need to do a FEW things in order to help you make your decision...

1. Talk to owners of boats similar in style to the ones you are looking at. Make sure those owners use those boats in the same waters you intend to. Get their opinions.

2. Try to find someone that will take you out on those boats you are interested in varying weather and conditions. Make sure that "someone" has enough experience to show you what the boat(s) can do safely. Given the cost of owning and operating a boat, chartering with some local captains would be a small investment in safety and education with GREAT returns. Not only will you find out what those boats can do on the water, you will get enormous amounts of other information just by talking with the captain... You might even get to catch some fish!

3. MOST IMPORTANTLY: TAKE A BOATER'S SAFETY COURSE!!!! I don't care if it's an on-line course or one taught in person by the USCG, but any education is better than none! You will be surprised at what you will learn!


My own personal experience: I've got a 20' CC right now and love it. Do I wish I had a larger boat? OF COURSE! I have had mine out in 6' seas before. I didn't venture out in seas that rough, but some storms surrounded us when we were 20+ miles off shore. I was having a blast, the vessel handled the seas wonderfully because I've been taught and have learned how to operate vessels in heavy seas. MY WIFE, however, was ready to kill me and probably would have if she could have stopped throwing up long enough to shove my gaff hook in the back of my head. Luckily, after we made it behind some barrier islands, we had calm water for about 20 minutes and she calmed down during that ride.

Good luck with your search and most importantly, be safe about your decision! It's not only a boat, it's your life and the lives of those aboard!

 

[180Fisherman]

Re: center console

Ran out into the St. Johns River a couple of weeks ago and ran into some 2' chop. I turned around and went home. Mine is a pretty solid 18' center console with 20 degree deadrise and lots of bow flare. The ride was very wet and very bumpy.

 

[high'n'dry]

Re: center console

Once below the surface of the water, the boat is sunk. It won't go to the bottom, but by many definitions, and for all intents and purposes, the boat is sunk. Submerged engines, hulls, fuel and controls won't take you home. Basically, a submerged Boston Whaler is a big flotation device that you can try to hold on to once she goes under. It won't go to the bottom - true. This is better than having nothing to hold onto, and it can help you be spotted, but you best have a PFD on. Some boat surveyors love to tell people that Whalers need all that foam because some of their designs lack true ocean designs (not the best transom configs) and take on too much water (this is the tougher side of reviews for some Whalers. Research as you would like).

And it is very true about the operator/captain: I have been on very large boats built for offshore fishing with "captains" who had no instinct or inherent sense of safety and it was terrifying. They drove into waves and took on water with each strike, despite the opportunity to adjust the course slightly and take on no blue water. Shivering fisherman, and hour from home and a bilge pump working to drain the battery and keep the vessel afloat, just because someone could not figure out how to play the action of the sea and the wind... and no am't of explaining seemed to penetrate their head.

I've been in 18' open bow boats in similar conditions as a passenger or operator, and the rhythm of the course and action over each wave actually got boring and uneventful.

You are incorrect. A boat such as pictured is not "sunk" but is swamped. A Boston Whaler will refloat itself. That is right, the small Whaler will come back on top--this FACT-- is one of the reasons that that are called unsinkable and which differentiates a BW and a few other select brands from the chaff.

Let's go over this again, a Boston Whaler, as long as it does not flip, has sufficient inherent buoyancy in the foam filled DOUBLE hull (to the gunwale cap) to refloat, as well, an outboard engine will continue to run even if the boat is swamped (flooded) and powering the boat in forward gear will allow the water to bail over the transom cutout and through the scuppers. I know this because I have done it in both my previous Montauk and our current Outrage. Once each was enough however, rather not test fate.

Yep, that is right, a small Boston Whaler, you can pull the plug, you can turn a dozen hoses into it full on and it will not go down and the water will empty from it. They have no bilge or only a small bilge for water to collect. The hull is a one piece construction of a double hull with foam completely filling it to the gunwale cap. The cockpit depth, transom cutout and scuppers make it impossible to put more water (weight) in the BW than there is positive buoyancy. Sure, if you fill it with concrete and tungsten bar it will sink. Under normal circumstances there is no way to have more water weight in the Whaler hull than there is buoyancy to offset it and therefore it will refloat itself, first spilling over the gunwales, then the transom and then the scuppers.

As to design of the transom, you are once again incorrect. There are two design philosophies for small boats:

1. Design to keep water out with high sides and transom and use pumps to clear the bilges. Water comes in, it must be pumped out. The Titanic Philosophy.

2. Design to let water out using lower sides, relieved transom and scupper, no bilge. Water comes in, gravity removes it. A notched transom on a small Whaler is a positive, not a negative as are the purposely low(er) freeboard/sides. The Surfboard Philosophy and you might know, you cannot sink a surfboard and yet they have no transom or sides at all.

 

[noworries79]

Re: center console

Couldn't agree more with the captain's experience comments. I have a 16' stratos I like to take out in the sound and occasionally the near shore wrecks.

Keep in mind that sound and bay chop can be very different than an ocean swell. The sound chop can be brutal in a smaller boat. I tend to slow down to 18 to 20 mph and let my hull work for me to keep me from slamming the next crest.

When the ocean is choppy, I don't usually go out. The winds have to be 5 to 10 mph. In these conditions it's almost like running on the sound with a light to moderate wind. Just keep an eye on the wind intensity, wind direction, other boats, and the forecast for sudden changes in the conditions.

A 60 foot sportfisher won't do you much good in rough conditions if the captain doesn't know what he's doing.

Good Fishing

 

[Philster]

Re: center console

You are incorrect. A boat such as pictured is not "sunk" but is swamped. A Boston Whaler will refloat itself. That is right, the small Whaler will come back on top--this FACT-- is one of the reasons that that are called unsinkable and which differentiates a BW and a few other select brands from the chaff.

Let's go over this again, a Boston Whaler, as long as it does not flip, has sufficient inherent buoyancy in the foam filled DOUBLE hull (to the gunwale cap) to refloat, as well, an outboard engine will continue to run even if the boat is swamped (flooded) and powering the boat in forward gear will allow the water to bail over the transom cutout and through the scuppers. I know this because I have done it in both my previous Montauk and our current Outrage. Once each was enough however, rather not test fate.

Yep, that is right, a small Boston Whaler, you can pull the plug, you can turn a dozen hoses into it full on and it will not go down and the water will empty from it. They have no bilge or only a small bilge for water to collect. The hull is a one piece construction of a double hull with foam completely filling it to the gunwale cap. The cockpit depth, transom cutout and scuppers make it impossible to put more water (weight) in the BW than there is positive buoyancy. Sure, if you fill it with concrete and tungsten bar it will sink. Under normal circumstances there is no way to have more water weight in the Whaler hull than there is buoyancy to offset it and therefore it will refloat itself, first spilling over the gunwales, then the transom and then the scuppers.

As to design of the transom, you are once again incorrect. There are two design philosophies for small boats:

1. Design to keep water out with high sides and transom and use pumps to clear the bilges. Water comes in, it must be pumped out. The Titanic Philosophy.

2. Design to let water out using lower sides, relieved transom and scupper, no bilge. Water comes in, gravity removes it. A notched transom on a small Whaler is a positive, not a negative as are the purposely low(er) freeboard/sides. The Surfboard Philosophy and you might know, you cannot sink a surfboard and yet they have no transom or sides at all.

You realize that you are actually embarrassing yourself here? So Whalers have special "submersible" engines and electronics?

Depending on theoretical bailing, wonder scuppers, magical engines and fairy electronics is sort of like being hypnotized by a brand and it's ad campaigns.

Surfboards are usually a within a couple hundred yards of a beach. An offshore boat? Not so much.

Not a quote from an ad agency:

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/boatreviews/boston_whaler_outrage_26.htm

 

[tx1961whaler]

Re: center console

You realize that you are actually embarrassing yourself here? So Whalers have special "submersible" engines and electronics?

Philster, look at the picture. The whaler's motor is not underwater. I've personally swamped my little 13 footer a couple of times and driven it dry. The motor does not go underwater, and (for my 70's era 40 HP) there are no electronics to get wet. I'm not going to be as bold to extrapolate my experiences with 13 and 15 footers to the larger boats, but I will tell you that you can fill a 13 footer up with water, the motor does not go under, and it will bail itself in 4 foot seas. Been there, done that, got the "I'm Stupid" T-shirt and patch.

 

[Philster]

Re: center console

Weren't we discussing 18' CC boats?

 

[high'n'dry]

Re: center console

You realize that you are actually embarrassing yourself here? So Whalers have special "submersible" engines and electronics?

Depending on theoretical bailing, wonder scuppers, magical engines and fairy electronics is sort of like being hypnotized by a brand and it's ad campaigns.

Surfboards are usually a within a couple hundred yards of a beach. An offshore boat? Not so much.

Not a quote from an ad agency:

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/boatreviews/boston_whaler_outrage_26.htm

I am sorry, you continue to be incorrect, outboard motors are designed to continue to run even when the boat is swamped.

And, as I said, it is not like it has happened before. Just because you fail to understand what makes something work, does not mean it is not so. I will stick with what I said.

For someone such as yourself who does not know the difference between swamped and sunken, perhaps a dictionary is in order as well as some real world experience.

Oh, and the boat review, I think we are talking about the sub 20 foot boats, 17 to 19 feet. As to the rest, his has an opinion of that boat, yipeee, not impressed with yet another know it all. There are those who don't like the foam filled boats and those who do.

But on the subject of a poorly designed boat, the one in your avatar meets the billing. No room, built only to go fast, burn gas and make noise. Very little usable space, and to top it all off, it will flood, swamp, capsize and sink. And, even better, yep, the engine will cease operation when it gets water in the hull. In fact, that is one of those stapled together jobs isn't it.