cd14 wont run

ArneA

Seaman
Joined
Oct 17, 2011
Messages
74
Before registering today, I have read many forms and done repairs thinking that when I pull the rope this time it will run..........Wrong ! put in new coils and condencers, set points at .020. Bought a spark tester which showed a nice blue spark. Put on a new carb. Replaced washer on fuel bowl that was not holding pressure and leaking. Thought for sure it was going to work.....Pulled the rope for about 15 minutes, occasionally the motor sputtered for a couple of seconds but that was it. Compression is 60+lbs cold. New J6C plugs. I need help as I dont know what else to do.
 

lindy46

Captain
Joined
Nov 27, 2008
Messages
3,886
Re: cd14 wont run

You said you put on a "new" carb - by "new" what do you mean? Rebuilt? Make sure your carb is clean and install a rebuild kit. If you've done that, try spraying fuel premix in the carb throat and see if she starts. If she starts and then dies out, try pumping the primer button on the tank and see if she keeps running. That motor relies on pressure in the tank to push gas into the carb. If the tank isn't holding pressure, the motor won't run. Also, you can try putting a little premixed fuel directly into the cylinders - "prime the pump" so to speak.
 

ArneA

Seaman
Joined
Oct 17, 2011
Messages
74
Re: cd14 wont run

I have done all of your suggestions before writing. I followed a link that gave step by step instructions with photo's on how to rebuild the carb. Tank holds pressure. Have put a few squirts of fuel in cylinders to prime it. Still only a sputter once in a while and a couple of times a pop like a backfire. It was a rebuilt carb but when I brought it home I took it apart. Clean as a whistle. I blew everything out anyway. Slow speed needle is out 1 1/2 turns and high speed is out 1 turn which was suggested for initial starting. Thank you for your response. All help is greatly appreciated.
 
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kfa4303

Banned
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Sep 17, 2010
Messages
6,094
Re: cd14 wont run

Hi ArenA. Sorry you're not having any luck. Thankfully, it can only be one of a few things. Assuming your spark really is good (i.e. can jump a 1/4" gap) I'm thinking you might have your s'plug wires crossed. When you replaced the coils and the copper core s'plug wires, did you route the wire coming of of the front coil to the upper/#1 cylinder? The original s'plug wire for the upper/#1 cylinder usually has a small, metal band crimped on to it. If not, then that may be why it's not firing. Also, be sure that all of the nuts and bolts on the car are nice and snug. I once had a 10 hp that wouldn't crank not matter what, then I realized the bowl on the carb was loose allowing air to leak in and prevent firing. I'm sure you've seen some of these links before, but they may be of use to you again.


http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/07/columns/max/index1.htm

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=167352

http://www.outboard-boat-motor-repa...on 3 HP 1952-1967 Ignition System Tune-up.htm

http://www.outboard-boat-motor-repa...hnson 5.5 HP 1954-1964 Carburetor Tune-UP.htm
 

ArneA

Seaman
Joined
Oct 17, 2011
Messages
74
Re: cd14 wont run

Thank you Lieutenant., as soon as I read your post I went outside and the metal band and it is on the #1 cylinder. Then I took the spark plug tester, moved the gap out to 1/4 inch and pulled the cord. Real good snap there. Sparked jumped fine. Bowl on the carb. has a new gasket and is tightly on. Going now to see if I have the plug wire coming out of the front coil goes to the #1 cylinder...As a side note, I don't know if my compression gauge is correct or not but my test today only went to 50lbs. I really appreciate you helping. Hope we can continue until this motor is fixed.
Checked wires, they are correctly routed with the #1 brass clip on the correct cylinder and coil. Checked the links that you gave me. Trying to save money using this forum and I appreciate greatly the help. Some guy in town here said that with only #50lbs compression that I need a leak down test. Problem is that I don't have $80 per hour to get help. Stay with me friend, I'm sure the fix is on the way. Thanks
 
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1946Zephyr

Vice Admiral
Joined
Oct 21, 2008
Messages
5,556
Re: cd14 wont run

I have done all of your suggestions before writing. I followed a link that gave step by step instructions with photo's on how to rebuild the carb. Tank holds pressure. Have put a few squirts of fuel in cylinders to prime it. Still only a sputter once in a while and a couple of times a pop like a backfire. It was a rebuilt carb but when I brought it home I took it apart. Clean as a whistle. I blew everything out anyway. Slow speed needle is out 1 1/2 turns and high speed is out 1 turn which was suggested for initial starting. Thank you for your response. All help is greatly appreciated.

If your high speed is at 1 turn out, then you're probably flooded out. Those should set at 1/2 to 3/4 turn out. The needle with the sharp tip goes in the slow speed and the needle with the rounded tip goes in the high speed. Same have crossed them I have seen in the past.

The faces of the coils should be perfectly flush with the machined bosses on the mag plate. I use a utility knife blade to check for trueness. There should be no daylight showing through the whole face, if it's lined up correctly.

Did you replace the wires when you replaced the coils? If not, then the connection where the wire goes into the coil could likely give you an issue. Also the connector in the spark plug boot can give you issues too.
 

cajuncook1

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Messages
559
Re: cd14 wont run

Here is a diagram of a generic OMC (Johnson/Evinrudle/Gale) ignition assembly. You will have to remove the coil designated for the top cylinder and put the oil wicker in. It should be already be coated with a very light oil. (not grease). The purpose of the oil wicker is to lightly lubricate the outside riding surface of the cam so the point shoes do not prematurely wear. If you look at the points they have little shoes that ride along the cam. Please make sure the (breaker)points cam is on the correct side or the ignition will be out of timing. It should have the word [highlight]top[/highlight] machine written on the side facing up.

Ignitionplateandoilwick.jpg


FYI: You can only set(gap) one set of points at a time. Put the flywheel nut back on(turn with a wrench or ratchet clockwise) to allow you turn the crankshaft. (Please remove both spark plugs to make it easier to turn the crankshaft and prevent accidental starting)

You gap the point to 0.020 when the point shoes is at the top(high point of the cam). It should have a mark along with the word top. Then you will turn clockwise to the next set of point 180 degrees and set those points the same way. You will notice that the point of the previous set will be closed and when you come around again they will open up. *** When they are open no current is allow through. This is how you set your timing with the points.***

When you go to set the point's gap. Very gently snug the anchor screw, then adjust the gap with adjusting screw and the feeler gauge until the feeler gauge is sliding through with slight resistance only. Then tighten the anchor screw. Repeat procedure with second set of points. Please make sure your hands are clean and the feeler gauge is clean, because oil on the points can foul them up and create resistance....poor or no no spark. ALways use a spark check to evaluate spark. It should jump minimum 1/4 inch. Blue sharp snappy spark.



Here is a picture of how to tell which wire is going to the correct cylinder. Thanks to Garry for providing the picture on other post ;)


TopCyl.jpg



If your using the existing wires then cut about 1/4 inch of end going the coil, so you have clean un-oxidized copper contacting the spiking in the coil. Twist the end of the spark plug wire onto the coil spike. If you have replaced the wires, make sure they are 7mm copper metal core and not the automobile stuff.

***** Please make sure two things*****

1.) Make sure all the wires are tucked away under the flywheel and not rubbing up against the cam or crank, because with will eventually get damage and create a short, then no spark!!

2.) Make sure the coil heels (ends) are evenly lined up with the mounting boss.

Here are some pictures. (Compliments of JBJennings..nice fella)

wrongcoilmount.jpg


rightwaytomountcoil.jpg


Lining up the coil heel with the mounting boss prevent damage of the coils and the flywheel magnet, prevent rubbing as the flywheel turns.

[highlight]*** Make sure the throttle is advanced to that start position***[/highlight]


Here is another picture that Garry (thanks Garry!!) supplied on another post with some modification.

OMC_Stdwithwirecolors.jpg



Both diagrams, should answer your questions.


Please verify that both spark plug wires are going to the right cylinder. You could have the plug wire label top connected to back coil which would be intended for the bottom cylinder, so you would get spark but your spark and fuel delivery(during compression needed for combustion) would be out of synch.

If all those match up, then you need to revisit your carburetor and pressure tank. Your compression is a bit low but within 10%, so give a go.
 

ArneA

Seaman
Joined
Oct 17, 2011
Messages
74
Re: cd14 wont run

I will be going out to the barn tomorrow and begin checking everything with the information and pictures that you have sent. I cannot adequately express my gratitude for all this help . Thank you Captain, Cmdr. CPO Lt. and everyone. You guys are great.
over and out for now.
ArneA.
E-1
 

ArneA

Seaman
Joined
Oct 17, 2011
Messages
74
Re: cd14 wont run

New information. I followed all the instructions regarding the ignition system. The Captain was right. I took the high speed needle to 1/2 turn out instead of 1 turn out. It took a lot of pulling but the motor started. I ran it for about 10 minutes doing the 1/8 slow speed corrections. I know it runs now but when an adjustment to the slow and high speed is done and I try to get to a slow idle, it quits. Then I opened up the slow speed needle and it started again but only after a lot of pulling. Could the difficulty in starting be due to the lower 50lb compression? This motor is a charity gift to an older couple so I need to have it where it will start easily. If you officers feel that your best advice has been given, I can take it to a shop to see about carb. adjustments. Again, I want to thank all of you senior officers for the wonderful support given to my efforts .
 
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kfa4303

Banned
Joined
Sep 17, 2010
Messages
6,094
Re: cd14 wont run

Hi AreanA. Glad you got her running. For starters, you can't really properly adjust the hi speed needle (the one on the bottom) until you have the motor on a boat on the open water at WOT. For now, you want to set it to about 3/4-1 full turn out, then snug down the brass nut the needle passes through to prevent it from vibrating around. As for the upper, Low speed needle, gently seat it and back it out about 1 1/2 turns. Start the motor in a test tank with water filled up to about and inch or two below the main exhaust port and follow these directions. It helps if you can run the motor in a well ventilated area so the motor doesn't suck in too much exhaust. While the compression is a bit low, the fact that you got her to run for 10 min is a good sign and probably means the compression is ok. You can also start the motor and set it at med-hi idle and spray Sea Foam, or Deep Creep into the carb as the motor is running. It will smoke like @#$# and temporarily drop the rpms a bit, but it will also remove old carbon deposits in the motor which should help smooth out the overall performance and lower the idle. Repeat this process 4-5 times using 4-5 second sprays each time, then shut the motor off, let it sit for about 20 min and fire it up again. It will smoke a lot, but those are more carbon deposits being burned away. Then try to get the motor on a the open water and run it at WOT to burn off any remaining deposits and to set the hi speed needle.






(Carburetor Adjustments - Two Adjustable N/Vs)
(J. Reeves)

Initial settings are: Bottom high speed = seat gently, then open 1 turn out. Top slow speed = seat gently, then open 1-1/2 turns.

Setting the high and low needle valves properly:

NOTE: For engines that DO NOT have a shift selection, obviously there is no NEUTRAL position. Simply lower the rpms to the lowest setting to obtain the low speed needle va /lve adjustment.

(High Speed) Start engine (it will run pretty rough), shift into forward gear, take up to full throttle. In segments of 1/8 turn, wating for the engine to respond between turns, start turning in the bottom high speed needle valve. You'll reach a point whereas the engine will either start to die out or spit back (sounds like a mild backfire). At that point, back out the needle valve 1/4 turn. Within that 1/4 turn, you'll find the smoothest setting.

(Low Speed) Slow the engine down to where it just stays running. Shift into neutral. Again in segments of 1/8 turns, start to turn the top needle valve in. Wait a few seconds for the engine to respond. As you turn the valve in, the rpms will increase. Lower the rpms again to where the engine will just stay running. Eventually you'll hit the point where the engine wants to die out or it will spit back. Again, at that point, back out the valve 1/4 turn. Within that 1/4 turn, you'll find the smoothest slow speed setting.

When you have finished the above adjustments, you will have no reason to move them again unless the carburetor fouls/gums up from sitting, in which case you would be required to remove, clean, and rebuild the carburetor anyway.
 

nwcove

Admiral
Joined
May 16, 2011
Messages
6,293
Re: cd14 wont run

great thread, but im a bit concerned about the compression numbers......it was 60+, then went to 50 ish, what are the numbers? ( i have a cd 13......92 psi top.....30 bottom..it runs....but very hard to start)
 

ArneA

Seaman
Joined
Oct 17, 2011
Messages
74
Re: cd14 wont run

Thanks for the comment Ensign nwcove. My compression tester is very old and my wife was holding it while I pulled it... I guess the compression at 50 or 60 is marginal but for now the motor is running thanks to all the good folks at iboats forum. I will probably have the compression tested elsewhere now that I have a good start on making this a dependable motor. This motor is very hard to start also. Tomorrow I will use seaform as suggested and see if that helps with built up carbon . It may help this motor run better. Thank you for writing.
 

cajuncook1

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Messages
559
Re: cd14 wont run

ArneA,

Your compression is a bit low but you can get the engine to run and your compression values are within 10% of each other.

The motor you have does not have a thermostat, so water is constantly circulating around the water jackets and cooling the motor off. (That is how the motor was designed and there is nothing you can do to prevent this.) So, the engine you have will have a higher tendency to build up carbon and coking on the cylinder head, in the grooves where the pistons rings reside, and in generalize area of the exhaust housing.

Coking of the rings will prevent them from moving freely, so will not seal as well and thus low compression. The rings could be froze in place due to years of harden coke/carbon and thus again prevent free movement of the rings and again low compression. So, a good decarbon treatment with Seafoam or Evinrude(BPR) Engine Tuner is a great idea and make take a couple application. Seafoam and Evinrude's Engine Tuner is cheap enough for a try. The guys are right, it will smoke like a house on fire, so just up date your neighbors...lol. All the smoke is the carbon dissolving and burning away.


Couple of things to consider regarding low compression:

- Most of us don't own mechanic quality compression gauges ( most of get them from Harbor Freights, etc, etc). So, values will vary and technique is important too.

- Try when the engine is cold and give 5 to 6 good long tugs on the rope. Make sure the gauge is secure and snug and not overly tightened. Make sure both plugs are out at the time of compression checking.

Here is a link to a youtube video of someone doing a compression check.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyCw4SiuT2I&feature=fvsr

- Low compression will cause you motor to be hard to start and difficult to low idle.


You should be very sure that you are running this motor on a 16:1 fuel to oil ratio. That is 8 ounce of TCW-3 grade 2 cycle oil per 1 gallon of 87 octane gas. Please don't let any tell you go to 32:1 or 40:1 or 50:1 because today's oil are better. You motor has bushings, so if you don't use the right oil to gas ratio you shorten the motors life and cause excessive wear and thus low compression.

** You stated that you put a new carb on. I am assuming that you put a new carburetor kit with a new style float.**

When you did the carburetor change(kit I assuming), did you

- remove all the old high and low speed needle packing (item #58) and replace with 2 new ones for each needle?(items 59 and 69)

- remove the core/expansion plug (item #24) to make sure that the mixing chamber was free and the three little at it's base was clear and clean. (This step is the one people forget or don't think about and it bites you in the butt sometimes.)

- Blow all the passages with compressed air after the carburetor dip?


Here is a link to electronic parts diagram for your motor.

http://www.marineengine.com/parts/v...ntage-evinrude-johnson/377018/37701800001.htm


Here is diagram for the carburetor for your motor, so you can make reference.

37701800006im.jpg



Here is a procedure for removing the expansion/core plug for cleaning.




Nonremoval of that core or expansion plug to do a complete carburetor cleaning is probably the one issue that plagues a lot of us. It is also a source of frustration because the trash and goo that is in that pocket can't always be cleaned with carb clean or blown out. In the future if when you get a carburetor kit and do a complete carburetor cleaning, always remove the core or expansion plug and replace with a new plug.

I am going to supply some diagrams for better explanation.


Be very careful if you put the carburetor body in a vise, so you don't damage the linkages or body with the vise.

You can use a punch or a drill to [highlight]carefully[/highlight] puncture a hole so you can remove the core plug. I have used a machine screw to puncture the core plug and used a pair of piers grasp the screw head and pop the core plug out, but be very careful not to go too deep with the drill, punch or screw. You don't want damage the chamber.

Once you have carefully cleaned the chamber, the little holes at the bottom and the needle passage to the mixing chamber then apply the core plug with the convext side up (the rounded side facing the sky).

[highlight]Try not to use wire to scrub out the holes or the needle passage way to the mixing chamber are you could damage or widen the hole and cause mixing problems. Spray carb cleaner or compressed air.[/highlight]

If you do not have a air compressor, then walmart sells compressed air cans with the straws that can be used. $3 or $4 dollars.[highlight]Also remember to disassemble your carb of all plastic and gaskets prior to using carburetor cleaner or dip( that stuff eats gaskets and plastic)[/highlight]. Blow it all out with compressed air.


Then take a wide punch or a 3/8 or 1/2 extension from a socket set (it has a wide flat base) and carefully tap(with a hammer and wide punch or extension piece) the core plug replacement in place. The convex (rounded portion) should be somewhat flat when done.


removalofcoreplugorexpansionplug.jpg


seatinganewcoreorexpansionplug.jpg


Well, that's how I do it, maybe someone will have other methods.
 

1946Zephyr

Vice Admiral
Joined
Oct 21, 2008
Messages
5,556
Re: cd14 wont run

Yea, if you have a cylinder that is considerably lower on compression, then it's likely a scored piston and the rings are stuck. Also a head gasket can be a cause of lower compression too.
 

cajuncook1

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Messages
559
Re: cd14 wont run

ArneA, this second part of my reply is to focus more on the fuel delivery.

Couple of questions:

- Is this motor being run on a pressure tank system or has this motor been converted to a fuel pump system???

** If you are using a pressure tank, is it maintaining a good seal and providing enough pressure to deliver fuel to the carburetor bowl?? **

**Are the o-rings in the female fuel connector( part #6 in tank diagram) good and preventing pressure loss and adequate fuel delivery??**

** Is there any fuel leakage from the female fuel connector, fuel lines, tank, or carburetor?

** Are any of the fuel line old looking, cracked or possibly the original fuel lines (this is including the tank) causing pressure leaking, fuel leaking or introducing air in the system.



- Did you change the carburetor 's float with the new style float or does it still have the old float in?

- If you have the old float in the carburetor, did you check to see if it is still is able to float in a cup of gas?
* The old float maybe gas and oil log due to ethanol's ability to de-shellac the protective coating. So if the float does not work or has little buoyancy then you could have a rich fuel delivery due flooding.

- Did you make sure your float was level?

- Is the ceramic filter (item #52 ) located in the glass carburetor bowl clean and patent?

- Is the tank clean and is the bottom of the tank free of old varnish or old oil goo making it difficult to prevent the pick up tube ( part #36 in tank diagram) in the tank from delivering fuel adequately?

- Is the fuel mix fresh or has it been in the tank for a while. (Old fuel mix can accumulate water in the tank and make running a motor very difficult



37701800006im.jpg




37701800014im.jpg





The reason I bring all these things up is because they can all effect fuel delivery and running of the motor.
 

ArneA

Seaman
Joined
Oct 17, 2011
Messages
74
Re: cd14 wont run

I wrote back to you while logged in...a lengthy post. Then when I clicked to send my reply, I was no longer logged in...Don't want to do it all over again so I will just say thank you and I will take everything you posted to heart and utilize all your recommendations. On thing,,,,many others recommend 24/1 mixture... The motor smokes like heck now. Wouldnt going to 16/1 just make it more of a smokehouse?
The tank had some moisture in it and some brown goo... I took a rag on a stick and wiped it out. I think now that I will drain the gallon out and clean it again. Carb float level. Gas lines original with no cracks or leakage. Ruined packing washers so I made a couple our of heavy waxed string....Bet your gonna to say that I need new packing washers.
When this motor is shut down for a day or longer, do I release pressure from tank and let the engine run out of fuel ? When I disconnected the plug, fuel dripped out of the male brass nipple. I assume it is from pressure in the engine. Need to know the proper shut down procedure.
Heading to Katy Texas next week to go tricker treating with grand kids. If your near Katy, would love to thank you personally for all your help.
 
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cajuncook1

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Messages
559
Re: cd14 wont run

ArneA,

I just remembered a link to a site that may make it a little easier for you. It gives pretty good instructions and step by step instruction and pictures to help you with this motor.

http://outboard-boat-motor-repair.c...ohnson 5.5 HP 1954-1964 Tune-Up Procedure.htm

Please disregard the opinion of the authors view of pressurized tanks. They are safe to use if proper maintenance and yearly inspection are performed. Motor and tanks of today (that are not pressurized) catch fire just like any other motor that is not properly maintained and inspected. The new tanks of today are meant for fuel pumps and can bloat and leak with the heat of summer and cause fuel leaks and pressure to build up and cause fires too.

The Johnson service manual states that a 16:1 fuel is to be used with this motor, but many people lean it to 24:1. But that is going to be your choice, I have a 1955 7.5hp Evinrude(very similar to your motor) and I use 16:1. If you want, use synthetic TCW-3 2cycle marine oil. It is about the same price of regular TCW-3 2Cycle marine oil, it smokes less, and is more biodegradable.

You motor is going to smoke a bit more than than today's engines due to a couple of things:


- naturally a 16:1 to fuel oil ratio (compared to today's motor which have bearings and use 50:1)

- you are running it in a barrel and most of the exhaust come out of near the foot of the motor. So it accumulates.

- You have not properly dialed in the carburetor and completed all the adjustments so it is going to run rich, then it will smoke more.

- You do not have a thermostat in the motor, so the head runs cooler. (Motors with thermostats have a operating head temp of about 135 to less than 160 degree Fahrenheit). By doing so the motor gets more complete consumption and combustion of the fuel mix being delivered.

I know you trying to save some money, but you can do complete major tune for less than $120 dollars including:

Changing coils, condenser, points, internal fuel hoses, carburetor kit with new style float, new gear oil 80/90wt, and impeller (water pump).

By changing all these, helps insures your motor will run better and will not leave you are someone else stranded. If it is unknown when the impeller was changed then please do it. It may be pumping fine now but could breakup and stop pumping and cooling the head, then the motor will overheat and seize up.

Please be sure to run the motor in a water barrel. This prevents from damaging the impeller by running it dry and cooling the powerhead. Make sure the lower unit is sitting in the water at least half way up the mid section or least past the water pump section. Please make sure the motor impeller is pumping good water amounts and the head is staying cool.


Well, I have talk you to deaf, so let us know how things turn out!!
 

nwcove

Admiral
Joined
May 16, 2011
Messages
6,293
Re: cd14 wont run

you say when you were doing the compression test, your wife was holding the tester? plz tell me the guage you were using isnt one of those rubber tipped.....press it to the plug hole type??? if it was.....your compression is probably better than the numbers you posted. ( some auto part stores will rent or even loan you a tester!) buying other parts before you know if your powerhead is good, could be a waste of money.
 

ArneA

Seaman
Joined
Oct 17, 2011
Messages
74
Re: cd14 wont run

Yep, it was a very old rubber tipped gauge. I will have it tested with another one. After running the motor yesterday, I went out this morning to do some further adjustments. Pulled until my rotator cuff hurts,..not even a putt. Went to the store and bought another carb kit and followed instructions word for word from your link.....Too tired tonight to even try to start it besides, I sprayed some sea foam in the cylinders and am letting it soak.
Went out this morning 10/27 pulled the rope some more..won't start. I have done everything that has been written for instructions..I did notice this morning that after pulling a lot on the cord. i took out the plugs and there were moisture, like small water droplets on the plugs, both cylinders. Where that is going to take me,,,,,,,,,well I don't know. Again, thanks for all your help.
 
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Chinewalker

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Aug 19, 2001
Messages
8,902
Re: cd14 wont run

Have you had the cylinder head off? Moisture comes from one of two places. It's either in the fuel - ethanol is a moisture magnet in today's fuels. Or it's from a blown head gasket - cooling water leaks into the cylinder.

Check your fuel for water first. If that checks okay, then check your compression again - that should show whether you've got a blown head gasket....
 
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