Cars and gas miliage

[v1_0]

So I've been doing some research into this CARS thing that the government has going on.

I supose that it is well intentioned, but I've heard that dealers are starting to pull out of it - the rules change frequently... PLUS the dealership has to front the money and wait for the government to reimburse them - sounds like it's none too quick and the dealers end up with cashflow issues...

But that's just a heads up, not what I want to discuss.

What I find interesting is the information on "http://www.fueleconomy.gov/". The advanced search is very interesting.

For example, if I happened to have a 2003 Dodge Grand Caravan with the 3.8L engine, this is rated at 19 MPG "combined" (16 city, 23 hwy). A modern day (2010)Dodge Grand Caravan, with the 3.8L engine, is rated exactly the same (19 combined, 16 city, 23 hwy).

Why hasn't this improved over the last 6 years?

Ok, if that isn't enough: A 1993 Chevy Caprice Station wagon, with a 5.7 L V8 engine, is rated at 17 MPG combined (15 city, 23 hwy)...

That's 16 years - with a much larger engine - and only 2 MPG difference? (Really, just 1 mpg city...)

I dunno, I would think that the MPG would go up more...

 

[pmat1]

Re: Cars and gas miliage

The origional model t got 40 mpg.. we can hardly achieve that with cars 100+ years later.

 

[TilliamWe]

Re: Cars and gas miliage

Well, no surprise that a vehicle that is still the same overall size and weight, with the same exact engine would not have any improvement in mileage.

The Caprice thing is achieved through gearing, and a little bit of the same principle you have in boats, where the same boat offered with a 5.0 and a 5.7. The 5.7 won't get that much worse fuel economy, because it's not working as had to push the weight.

Also you are comparing the 3.8 Chrysler motor, which for some reason, is not as fuel efficient as GM's 3.8 and certainly not as efficient as my 3.4 in my 99 Montana minivan. It gets 18 in the city (not EPA, actual mileage) and 26 on the highway (again, measured actual mileage).

Plus, fuel injection technology has definately plateau'd (I know that is not spelled right! ). You can only do so much and get so much mileage from an existing engine.

 

[TilliamWe]

Re: Cars and gas miliage

The origional model t got 40 mpg.. we can hardly achieve that with cars 100+ years later.

Yeah, and it rode like a buckboard, didn't have power steering, didn't have electric start, and went about 40mph top speed. Sure, I wanna go back to that!

 

[JB]

Re: Cars and gas miliage

The engines have gotten more efficient. Vehicles have gotten heavier and the fuel has less energy per gallon.

If the EPA rated vehicles in ton-miles per gallon there would be a big difference.

There is still a lot of room for improvement in 4 stroke engine technology. Direct injected, compound turbocharged Dies-Otto 4 strokes are about 25% more efficient than current EFI Otto cycle or Diesel 4 strokes.

 

[rogerwa]

Re: Cars and gas miliage

When I was test driving vehicles, one of the ones on the top of my list was the VW Jetta TDI. Its a 140Hp Turbodiesel that the reports show can get upwards of 45MPG. I drove one and it was a very fun car to drive, it was a kick in the seat, especially with the 6 speed manual tranny.

These are also quite bulletproof and can go for 200K miles easily.

I saw one on the road with a bumper sticker that said:

"I drive a hybrid. It burns diesel and rubber"

To me, a car like this is heading in the right direction. It does not require all the hybrid tech and batteries, gets hybrid like mileage, and is fun to drive.

 

[roscoe]

Re: Cars and gas miliage

So I've been doing some research into this CARS thing that the government has going on.

I supose that it is well intentioned, but I've heard that dealers are starting to pull out of it - the rules change frequently... PLUS the dealership has to front the money and wait for the government to reimburse them - sounds like it's none too quick and the dealers end up with cashflow issues...

But that's just a heads up, not what I want to discuss.

What I find interesting is the information on "http://www.fueleconomy.gov/". The advanced search is very interesting.

For example, if I happened to have a 2003 Dodge Grand Caravan with the 3.8L engine, this is rated at 19 MPG "combined" (16 city, 23 hwy). A modern day (2010)Dodge Grand Caravan, with the 3.8L engine, is rated exactly the same (19 combined, 16 city, 23 hwy).

Why hasn't this improved over the last 6 years?

Ok, if that isn't enough: A 1993 Chevy Caprice Station wagon, with a 5.7 L V8 engine, is rated at 17 MPG combined (15 city, 23 hwy)...

That's 16 years - with a much larger engine - and only 2 MPG difference? (Really, just 1 mpg city...)

I dunno, I would think that the MPG would go up more...

You've been reading the wrong sources.

First off, the programs final draft was only released 4 days ago, thats when dealers could register to participate. The actual program for consumers hasn't even started yet.

The dealership isn't fronting any money, it already owns the stock, and may or may not have to wait a while to get part of the payment.

The reason auto mileage has not gone up over the last umpteen years, is because the epa continues to lower emissions output levels, and the fuel contains less energy per gallon.

I had a Mazda 323 in '89, that got 30, and 41 highway;

the gov site says it got 24/32. for a combined 27 ???

2009 version now gets 24/32, for a combined 27 ??

 

[JB]

Re: Cars and gas miliage

Watch it, guys. This can survive as a technical discussion of advances in technology or it can be smitten from existence if it gets into politics. No politics, period.

 

[triumphrick]

Re: Cars and gas miliage

Car manufacturers are only going to do as little as they can and still sell cars. If the government wasn't involved in "encouraging" them to get better fuel mileage, they wouldn't care. It is not that big of a selling point for the amount of research and development it would cost.
But things are changing...have you seen some of the horsepower ratings of the newer motors?
GM 2.4,169; 3.6,300; 3.6,288..Chrysler 2.4 173, 3.5 235..Ford 2.5,171; 3.5,263...Honda 2.4,177; 3.5,271...Hyundai 2.4,175; 3.8,306....Infinity 3.5, 303; 3.7 30...Jeep 2.0,158; 2.4 172...Kia 2.4, 175; 3.8, 276...Mazda 2.5, 171; 3.0 240....I could go on. These all all normally aspirated motors, much more efficient than motors of the past. Many of which rival older V8's.
I still think the turbo diesel as used widely thruout Europe will begin to be seen more frequently. That technology has improved drastically and Americans are just beginning to warm up slowly to them.

 

[rogerwa]

Re: Cars and gas miliage

Actually the dealer is fronting the money. Once you come in and sign the papers, they are depending on the Gov't to reimburse them the $4500. It kind of puts them in a bad position. The ability to back out of the deal is difficult, especially if they have already disabled the trade in. I would hope that the online system will give an approval and that the disbursement of funds is a formality, but there is a period of time there where the dealer is giving a short term loan to the government.

 

[TilliamWe]

Re: Cars and gas miliage

...but there is a period of time there where the dealer is giving a short term loan to the government.

No big deal there. We all do that every year, with our income tax withholdings.
I guess it's like this, what's better, wait a little while to get their $4500, or keep making payments on the car, just sitting on their lot?

 

[Bifflefan]

Re: Cars and gas miliage

Cant tell ya,
I had a 1979 F150 4x4 with 33" tires with a 69 302 in it that got 21MPG. I cant find to that again to save my life.

 

[skargo]

Re: Cars and gas miliage

I had a 74 Vega that got 30mpg till it blew up. It was very light.

Today's cars are heavy because of the safety requirements to I would guess. Or maybe the Oil companies, auto manufacturers and others are in cahoots? Who knows?

 

[v1_0]

Re: Cars and gas miliage

I guess it's like this, what's better, wait a little while to get their $4500, or keep making payments on the car, just sitting on their lot?

I hadn't meant to discuss this, but maybe I should.

First off, business aren't individual employees. An employee gets income based on hours worked (or salary).

Businesses such as a dealership do not make their money on any one individual sale - they get money based on turning their inventory.

This means that each sale they make should cover the cost of getting more inventory, plus cover overhead, and generate a little profit. Dealerships don't make money *having* stock sitting on the lot, that is true.

On the other side of the coin, dealerships don't make money if they sell the car for less than what they need to buy the next car, plus cover the overhead, plus generate the little profit.

Overhead includes any interest, keeping the lights on the dealership, and paying the sales people/manager/other employees, etc. by the way.

To illustrate this, let's use an example of a Mazda 6 here - it was mentioned in another post on the 'cars' program.

Dealer invoice price for the bottom line Mazda 6 is $17,601, dealer list price for that car would be $18,550 - so we are looking at about $950 to cover overhead and prophit. [I suspect that the dealer makes a bit more than that, but for the sake of discussion let's say that this is what they make at sales time - there are other rebates between the dealer and manufacturer that occur at the end of the year based on sales, etc, that actually increase this.]

After the sale, the dealer would turn around and buy a replacement Mazda 6 (or whatver) using the money from the sale - so the original 17,601 is 'turned'. The dealer generates $950 per turn of this inventory item. If they make 4 sales per month, they generate $3800...

Now, let's throw the rebate into the mix here. At the time of the sale, the dealer gets $14050 in 'cash' and $4500 in a rebate IOU. Obviously, 14050 is less than the 17,601 the dealer would need to replenish the stock, so they have 2 choices - wait, or borrow up to $4500 (as they still have rent, employees, etc. to pay). If they wait, they reduce the number of turns on their inventory - which decreases their prophit. If they borrow the money, they pay interest on it - which decreases the prophit, but probably less than waiting. That is, IF they can borrow money. Credit is tight...

On a single car, there is a third option: take money from other sales to cover the shortfall... This will reduce the prophit numbers initially, but in the end when the rebate is paid they will come out as it should. And, finally, a fourth option is to not buy one of the 'replenishment' cars that you would have otherwise bought, and take that money to cover your shortage at this time.

However, dealers aren't selling just one car this way - let's say they sell 10.... Now we are looking at a 45K hit all at roughly the same point in time. If you sell 20 cars a month, (now you are selling 30), it's still a big hit as you are in a deficit on those 10 sales... Let's say you make 3K on each of the 20 cars you sell - so that's a 60K 'net', minus the 45K you are fronting for the government - so at the end of the day you have dropped from 60K to 15K 'net'!!! That's pretty significant.

Yes, they will make it up on the end (105K vs 60K), but in the short term it will kink their cashflow, which can cause major problems...

We all do that every year, with our income tax withholdings.

This is actually voluntary.... With some effort, you should be able to calculate your expected taxes for the coming year and set your withholding to get exactly what you need. Or, just keep some money in the bank (with YOU collecting the interest rather than the Government) to cover a slight shortage... (Small enough not to incur any penalties).

And, your business model is slightly different - so your 'opportunity cost' is only the loss of interest.

However, it is easier just to overpay and get a refund later...

 

[642mx]

Re: Cars and gas miliage

The origional model t got 40 mpg.. we can hardly achieve that with cars 100+ years later.

Actually, Ford says the model T got 25 mpg... http://http://www.ford.com/about-ford/heritage/vehicles/modelt/672-model-t

 

[TilliamWe]

Re: Cars and gas miliage

Quote:
Originally Posted by TilliamWe
We all do that every year, with our income tax withholdings.

This is actually voluntary.... With some effort, you should be able to calculate your expected taxes for the coming year and set your withholding to get exactly what you need. Or, just keep some money in the bank (with YOU collecting the interest rather than the Government) to cover a slight shortage... (Small enough not to incur any penalties).


I guess I should have said "most" of us do with our withholdings. I actually filed eztimated taxes the past two years, so i know all about how much to give and not to give. But the fact is, MANY people give the Feds interest free loans every year, and this is just another form of it. Gotta give a little to get a little, that's how I see it.

642mx, thanks for the mileage on the Model T. I thought 40 seemed like an awful lot from a technologically inefficient valve-in-block 4 cylinder engine.

 

[BWR1953]

Re: Cars and gas miliage

I saw on the news the other night that the rules apparently changed on Saturday just prior to the program going active. Anyone know what the changes are?

I actually was at a new car dealership on Saturday, checking things out. From what I hear, the number of folks in the showrooms has increased significantly.

My old Jeep gets 15mpg and I'd like to get something that gets double that mpg and could still tow my little fishing boat. Even a Kia Spectra has a 2,000 lb. tow capacity. Don't really wanna strain anything, but both the Hyundai and the Kia come with 100,000 mile warranties.

I dunno... LOL

 

[Tacklewasher]

Re: Cars and gas miliage

I gather one of the recent issues is that the EPA has gone back and changed the MPG values for some older cars so they no longer qualify as "guzzlers".

http://money.cnn.com/2009/07/28/autos/clunker_mpg_switch/index.htm?postversion=2009072811

As a result, 86 car models became newly eligible for the program. However, 78 models became ineligible, EPA spokeswoman Cathy Milbourne said in a statement released Tuesday night.

Sounds like some dealerships jumped the gun on providing the rebates and may be left either going back to their customers or out the $4,500.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Cars and gas miliage

CARS program is being suspended!

 

[TilliamWe]

Re: Cars and gas miliage

Yep, i just saw the blurb in my local paper online! Gotta love it!