can jump solenoid, but won't "key" start

[barrettecd02]

I have a 92 Four Winns bowrider 3.0L I/O OMC Cobra that I want to light on fire in my driveway. This thing is going to be the death of me. I have tried everything I can think of to get it to start and am out of ideas. I am not a pro boat mech by any means and that's probably half the problem. That's why i'm here, you guys know this stuff alot better than myself. I replaced the starter and attached solenoid (one piece unit) when it went out about a month ago along with the assist solenoid for good measure. It worked fine the next several times out. I can jump the assist solenoid to get it to start now, but I don't even get a click when i turn the key now. All of my dash lts and horn and stuff work. Here is what i've done:

-replaced ignition switch
-bypassed neutral start switch by putting a jumper in the connector
-checked voltage coming in and out of both 50A breakers and have 12V (I think that's right?)
-checked continuity from ignition switch to assist solenoid and it is fine
-checked continuity on starter jumper and solenoid wires (all but one that is)
-new starter and attached solenoid
-new assist solenoid, could it be bad? I tried 2, can I test it somehow?
-swapped batteries, but don't think that would be it b/c I would at least get a click from the solenoid??


I have to be missing something but have no idea what it could be. Please help me, as I don't have a clue where to go from here. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

 

[barrettecd02]

Re: can jump solenoid, but won't "key" start

sorry im new to this. Should I try just running a new wire from the switch? Or is it possible that I somehow incorrectly bypassed the neutral start switch?

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: can jump solenoid, but won't "key" start

I can jump the assist solenoid to get it to start now, but I don't even get a click when i turn the key now.

Howdy,


If you can "jump" the starter solenoid and get the engine to crank, then you have a problem with the wire coming from the key/neutral safety switch.

It does the same thing.

51206

your Zipcode?

 

[barrettecd02]

Re: can jump solenoid, but won't "key" start

Yes,

I have an aftermarket manual for the boat and i have been over the instrument panel schematic and the engine schematic a million times. I know i've got to be missing something, but i have no idea where. I'm no boat expert and don't know if there are any other neutral start switch type potential problems. Is there some way to test to see if my assist solenoid may have gone bad already? I have the original that wasn't bad and have tried both and nothing. Like i said, i'm pulling my hair out here and it doesn't seem like this should be that hard.

 

[barrettecd02]

Re: can jump solenoid, but won't "key" start

Thank you so much for the help. I do know how to use a multimeter. I should have +12V there correct? I have not tested this but will this evening. The other way you mentioned, are you saying to jump from the pos battery terminal to that terminal? Thanks again for the help. I've been going crazy over this.

 

[Don S]

Re: can jump solenoid, but won't "key" start

Might want to have a look at this thread on troubleshooting the starting system.

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=167035

 

[barrettecd02]

Re: can jump solenoid, but won't "key" start

Thanks a lot, you guys have a ton of great information. I will read thru all of it and see what happens! Thanks again.

 

[barrettecd02]

Re: can jump solenoid, but won't "key" start

Ok, I'm working on my boat and the troubleshooting link above says to touch terminal C on the slave solenoid w/my test light. I am unsure which one is C, I have I and S on my solenoid. I did the ignition switch test and it is good. The how to also says if my light lights up then test terminal A, again i don't have that. Here is how mine is currently wired. Battery cable from + battery terminal to one of the big slave terminals, thick red wire from same slave terminal to 50A breakers, another big battery cable from other large slave terminal to starter, yellow/red wire from S terminal to ignition, and the other wire (can't tell the color, appears to have been worked on) I believe goes to ground? The boat "did" start before wired this way, so i am hesitant to start moving wires around, but will if something is "rigged" to work. Also, it was asked if I had voltage at the solenoid, any input on what voltage i should have where? I assume 12V, but don't know. Any help would be greatly appreciated. And if there's any vet's out there happy veterans day, I proudly served and would like to thank any and all of you for contributing to the way of life we are priveleged to enjoy every day.

 

[barrettecd02]

Re: can jump solenoid, but won't "key" start

Quick update, I just checked voltage at the slave solenoid. With the ignition switch off, i only have 12v to the battery connection terminal. With the switch turned to on, not start I have 12v at both my I and S terminals. This seems wrong, but I dont know what that means. Any ideas? If it's the solenoid being bad, what might cause this because I just changed it a month or so ago and don't want to keep burning these things up. Thanks again.

 

[barrettecd02]

Re: can jump solenoid, but won't "key" start

I have continuity from the I terminal to the ground lug on the block, so it has to be grounded. Sorry for all the posts just want to get you all the info i can. Thanks again.

 

[GLENN M]

Re: can jump solenoid, but won't "key" start

stop,use the link don gave you read it,study it its not to difficult keep studying until you fully understand where power goes and when and why it goes there.then compare yours and you will find problem,if you cant understand how it works it makes it hard to fix

 

[barrettecd02]

Re: can jump solenoid, but won't "key" start

I'm sorry. I thought that this forum was for people who were not experts. I have read it multiple times, but I do not know the operational theory of an assist solenoid. I apologize for my ignorance, but I was under the impression that this site was a source for people with less than professional competence. Again, I apologize for upsetting anyone, I must have misunderstood, or accidentally abused this forum, it was not intentional in any way. I'm not looking for someone to do this for me. I just went as far as I know how.

 

[GLENN M]

Re: can jump solenoid, but won't "key" start

no apology needed,your right,but if you stop and maybe step back for aminute,and then really study that diagram it will become clear, what you have is a switch [solinoid] that activates another switch [solinoid] whitch supplys starter. first switch is activated with 16 gauge wire from ignition switch,witch sends power to second switch throw 10 gauge wire, you can jump test either one and starter should turn. they did same thing on hiperf cars with headers get more power to solinoid when hot

 

[barrettecd02]

Re: can jump solenoid, but won't "key" start

Ok, I spent a lot of time going over the manual I have with their troubleshooting tests which are somewhat different and more complicated, so I thank you Don for the simplicity. I ruled out the neutral start switch and any bad wire by running a new wire (with properly crimped connectors)right from the yellow/red terminal on the ignition switch to the "C" terminal on the solenoid. When I turn the switch on, not start, I get 12.4V to terminals C and D. D goes to ground based on the schematic in Don's link. Per my manual, D goes to the alternator, coil, and ground for my guages. The manual also shows a ground wire going from the base of the solenoid to the ground stud on the block. I was under the impression that the solenoid has a "grounding base" that takes the place of that, but I added the wire to be sure. I am pretty sure the answer to my problem lies in getting 12V to the D terminal, but I can't figure out for the life of me what that means or how that is possible unless that means the solenoid is bad. I did the tests at the solenoid and my test light lights both in the on and start position except when I put the light on A and D which the instruction tells me I have a bad ground. As I said I put a new ground wire on, I don't know what gives. If anyone knows the answer to this I promise I will leave you guys alone. Again, I apologize for the excessively long post.

 

[telstar1]

Re: can jump solenoid, but won't "key" start

1.The unidentified wire on slave solenoid does NOT go to ground. It goes from I term. to + side of ign. coil. Gives coil 12V when starting only. Rest of operating time coil only gets around 6 volts,due to a resistor in main coil supply wire.I term should not have signif. voltage unless key in start position and solenoid has "clicked"on.That is with the I term. empty.If the "unidentified" wire is hooked up to I term. ,I term. will (I think) show voltage due to its attachment to coil which has power.If slave solenoid works by jumping the live large term.(the one with wire to battery +) to the S term on solenoid,in other words putting 12v to the S term., then your solenoid is fine. Prob then lies in wiring to key.Use some head power to figure out ways to test for voltage at various places on this circuit. If you want, run a temp wire from key to S term, see if that works.

 

[dubs283]

Re: can jump solenoid, but won't "key" start

If anyone knows the answer to this I promise I will leave you guys alone

remove and clean/replace ALL battery/starter/solenoid connections/wiring!!

re-read and follow the sticky on troubleshooting!!!

 

[Don S]

Re: can jump solenoid, but won't "key" start

Seems all this time, I have been giving you information on testing your starting system, without realizing that OMC uses a different assist solenoid than any of the other manufacturers. They basically treat a GM starter like a single post Ford starter by bypassing the use of the starter mounted solenoid.

Here is a drawing of how your system is wired, and how to test it with the test light.

With test light, connect the clip to a good engine ground and touch the light to terminal B. The light should light.
Now, clip the test lead to B and touch the base with the light. The light should light indicating a good ground.
Clip the light to the ground and turn the ignition switch to the start position.
Your light should light when touching the S terminal.
If not, you have wiring problems between the terminal on the assist solenoid up to and including the ignition switch.
If the test light DID light up, hold the ignition switch to the start position and check the A terminal of the solenoid. If it doesn't light up, then you need a new solenoid.

 

[barrettecd02]

Re: can jump solenoid, but won't "key" start

Don, thank you very much for your patience and continued assistance. I truly appreciate all of the help from all of you and apologize to those of you I have annoyed. I can't wait to go get after it.

 

[bambsinc]

Hi barrettecd02,

I am experiencing the same issue you had a decade ago with my 1983 Century Mustang 195. It has a Mercruiser 470 motor and seems to be wired very similarly to yours. Can you please share whether you where able to resolve your issue???

I can jump the motor at the igntion (B=S) and at the starter solenoid, but not with the key. It seems as if the ignition wire has a drain when i turn it. I thought the panel gauges should shut down when I turn the key position one more notch to the start position, but they don't. They stay live. I have changed the ignition switch, slave solenoid and starter solenoid and bench tested both neutral safety switches before installing them. Thanks!

 

[Eric 3.7LX Alpha 1]

Hi barrettecd02,

I am experiencing the same issue you had a decade ago with my 1983 Century Mustang 195. It has a Mercruiser 470 motor and seems to be wired very similarly to yours. Can you please share whether you where able to resolve your issue???

I can jump the motor at the igntion (B=S) and at the starter solenoid, but not with the key. It seems as if the ignition wire has a drain when i turn it. I thought the panel gauges should shut down when I turn the key position one more notch to the start position, but they don't. They stay live. I have changed the ignition switch, slave solenoid and starter solenoid and bench tested both neutral safety switches before installing them. Thanks!

Start a new thread with your problem.