Bilge Pumps Not Working

[scarpint]

Greetings,

We had an unexpected opportunity to pick-up a 1989 220cc Sea Ray that has had a single owner who we've known since the boat was purchased new. It is generally good shape and has been well maintained.

One issue (of several) that we are having is it has two bilge pumps (one in the center, underfloor storage and one under the engine) and neither of them works. I've tried the switch on the console, and have tried activating them with their floats, all to no avail. Batteries are good with the selector switch set to "both". When I manually activated the floats, I felt absolutely nothing. Not sure if this is normal, but I didn't feel any resistance like a switch being activated, or some such thing.

They look to be original, so I'm assuming the floats and the pumps are 35 years old.

Hoping somebody can steer me in a direction to help understand how to replace these. Maybe a link or video that has worked for you. I'm curious how the floats are wired to the pumps. I can't post a photo but the two wires for the pump, and single wire for the float disappear into a black, plastic wiring cover.

Thanks so much!



Thanks for considering!

 

[Chris1956]

You bought a 35 year old boat. You will be replacing much more stuff that that. The only issue with repair of the bilge pumps is usually getting to them.

Use some clip leads to provide battery power directly to them and see if they work. If not pull them out and get new ones.

If they work, then the wiring or switch is bad. For the auto pumps or those with float switches, power usually bypasses the battery switches to the pumps, via the dashboard switch and or float switch. Look for a dedicated fuse or separate wire for the pumps. Heck maybe the wires that power the pumps weren't hooked up.

If you need new pumps, check the wiring for power using a test light or voltmeter. Obviously, the wiring needs power or hooking up the new pumps is useless.

A generic wiring diagram for bilge pumps should be easily available.

 

[mike_i]

Check fuse

 

[scarpint]

Check fuse

There's a switch on the console to manually turn the pump on. Unlike the other switches on the console, it doesn't have a fuse directly under it. Any ideas I where I might chase down a fuse in this scenario. Thanks!

 

[scarpint]

You bought a 35 year old boat. You will be replacing much more stuff that that. The only issue with repair of the bilge pumps is usually getting to them.

Use some clip leads to provide battery power directly to them and see if they work. If not pull them out and get new ones.

If they work, then the wiring or switch is bad. For the auto pumps or those with float switches, power usually bypasses the battery switches to the pumps, via the dashboard switch and or float switch. Look for a dedicated fuse or separate wire for the pumps. Heck maybe the wires that power the pumps weren't hooked up.

If you need new pumps, check the wiring for power using a test light or voltmeter. Obviously, the wiring needs power or hooking up the new pumps is useless.

A generic wiring diagram for bilge pumps should be easily available.

Thank you for your reply. You've given me some good leads to pursue.

 

[sdowney717]

Bilge pump switches fail more often than pumps, but pumps also fail, the seals leak in water. I have had good experiences with the Johnson bilge pump switch 36152. I have a Rule 3700 running on it now even though switch is rated to 15 amps.
The float is not mechanically connected to the switch mechanism, it is electro mechanical and sealed. Float magnetically turns on a reed switch.

Johnson Pump 36152 - Bing

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https://www.amazon.com/Rule-3700-Heavy-Marine-Bilge/dp/B000O8F7RE?th=1

I have 5 bilge pumps on my 37 foot boat, BECAUSE, they fail, so I went with redundancy as you never know when any single bilge pump will fail. And they will fail, all of them will fail. Since I have a generator, I also got a 1/2 HP sump pump just in case. I use an old pool cleaner hose., 1.5" diameter and it puts out a lot of water. Has an automatic switch on it. Got that pump at Home Depot.

 

[ESGWheel]

Nice boat! Based on your question it seems as if you are satisfied with the other aspects of the boat and given the relationship, etc. that seems to be a good bet. But with the age of the bilge pumps my suggestion is to simply replace. Trusting your investment to a 35 old pumps, even if you get them working is asking for trouble IMO.

But before we get into that, I must ask: are you comfortable with this sort of work? That you are posting on this forum suggests like the rest of us, looking to save a few bucks with DIY projects so I assume yes, but I hesitate based on how you asked your question.

Here is a summary of what would be involved in replacing these pumps. It assumes both pumps are activated by (1) the switch(s) at the helm and (2) by the float (i.e. an automatic mode).

• There are 3 wires for these (or a replacement) pump: Gnd, Switched Power and Continuous Power (for the automatic feature). You will need to determine which wire is which, typically with a Multimeter.
• You will have to determine the method mounting the of the old pumps and asses if you can use the same for the new > probably not. Thus, may need to fill the old screw holes (epoxy) and drill new ones without drilling thru the bottom of the hull.
• You will need to properly splice and waterproof the new pump wires into the gnd, switched and continuous wires mentioned above. This means crimp connectors using a crimp tool + heat shrink tubing or potentially wiring in a new plug that is sealed.
• Most of this activity will be on your belly laying down as that is how you get to the pumps.

Not trying to scare you off, and please do not take offence. Just trying to outline what is required.

If you are good with the above, let’s go and we will help you thru it. It’s a good project and frankly something that (when all done) to be proud of and even fun if you enjoy this sort of thing. Plus you get to buy cool new tools (if needed) which is always a bonus

 

[scarpint]

Nice boat! Based on your question it seems as if you are satisfied with the other aspects of the boat and given the relationship, etc. that seems to be a good bet. But with the age of the bilge pumps my suggestion is to simply replace. Trusting your investment to a 35 old pumps, even if you get them working is asking for trouble IMO.

But before we get into that, I must ask: are you comfortable with this sort of work? That you are posting on this forum suggests like the rest of us, looking to save a few bucks with DIY projects so I assume yes, but I hesitate based on how you asked your question.

Here is a summary of what would be involved in replacing these pumps. It assumes both pumps are activated by (1) the switch(s) at the helm and (2) by the float (i.e. an automatic mode).

• There are 3 wires for these (or a replacement) pump: Gnd, Switched Power and Continuous Power (for the automatic feature). You will need to determine which wire is which, typically with a Multimeter.
• You will have to determine the method mounting the of the old pumps and asses if you can use the same for the new > probably not. Thus, may need to fill the old screw holes (epoxy) and drill new ones without drilling thru the bottom of the hull.
• You will need to properly splice and waterproof the new pump wires into the gnd, switched and continuous wires mentioned above. This means crimp connectors using a crimp tool + heat shrink tubing or potentially wiring in a new plug that is sealed.
• Most of this activity will be on your belly laying down as that is how you get to the pumps.

Not trying to scare you off, and please do not take offence. Just trying to outline what is required.

If you are good with the above, let’s go and we will help you thru it. It’s a good project and frankly something that (when all done) to be proud of and even fun if you enjoy this sort of thing. Plus you get to buy cool new tools (if needed) which is always a bonus

THIS is the kind of response I was hoping for. And yes, I'm comfortable attempting this, but was hoping someone may have encountered this on a similar boat to help track wiring. Ascertaining whether there's any power going to the pumps is the first priority. I'm working on the pump in the storage compartment first (it looks to drain the main deck in the event of rain) since it's easiest to get at. There are only two wires running to the pump contrary to your first point above. There's a single wire coming out of the float, but it looks like it's big enough that there might be multiple wires within it. All these wires run into a plastic cable/wire protector so they must be spliced together at some other point upstream. I'll see if I can't find that point, but if not, I'll simply cut the wires near the pump/float to do my testing.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply!

 

[ESGWheel]

Cool, you are game! And I know we are going to both learn from this, for example I have not heard of a bilge pump pumping to another bilge pump before, so this will be fun.

Let’s get started

While you are teasing out the wiring you do need to think about how you want these pumps to work. Based on your post above, the storage compartment pump (let’s call this the 1st pump) does NOT pump overboard and thus all its discharge will be handled by the 2nd (engine compartment?) pump that does pump overboard.

Side question: how many bilge pump switches do you have at the helm? For the below I am going to assume only one and it’s meant to manually control only pump no. 2 (if that is wrong, we can adjust).

This two-pump situation means a couple of things IMO:

• The size of these pumps needs to be coordinated. In other words, the 2nd pump must have more capacity than the first. There may be some with experience of doing this that can suggest a ratio and I did not find anything with a quick search, so my suggestion is the 2nd pump needs to be at least 2x the capacity of 1st pump.
• And unless there is a need to have the 1st on both manual and automatic, suggest it only be automatic.

Interlude for some discussion about wiring and pump types.
Wiring: there are two wire pumps and three wire pumps.

• 2 wire: a ground and a switched positive > i.e. the pump only comes on when switched on.
• 3 wire: a ground, a switched positive and a constant positive (i.e. hardwired to the battery and not thru a switch nor thru the battery on/off selector > quite literally to the battery (via a fuse)). This type of pump will come on when switched on AND will automatically come on when water level rises enough to activate it.

Type of Pumps: there are 3 basic types.

• 100% manual > no float switch or any other activating device other then the switch at the helm (so 2 wire).
• Float switch > this uses a float (like your current ones) to determine the water level and if high enough, will activate the pump automatically. Most (all?) would also have a helm switch option as well (so 3 wire).
• Electronic water level sensor > this uses some electronics to sense the water level (no moving parts) and if high enough will activate the pump automatically. Most (all?) would also have a helm switch option as well (so 3 wire).
• Auto Run Pump to Check > this is the newest stye on the market. What is does is periodically turn on, all on its own. If the load on the motor is sufficiently high enough it means there is water that is pumping and thus will remain on until the load drops to its ‘freewheeling’ level. Any motor under a load will draw a higher current (power) than when its not under load (freewheeling). The electronics take advantage of this. Most (all?) would also have a helm switch option as well (so 3 wire).

Important note: any 3 wire pump can be run as only fully automatic or fully manual or both. Said differently if you had a 3 wire pump and only wanted to run in on automatic, just cap off the ‘switched positive’ wire. Or if only on manual, just cap off the ‘constant positive wire’. No harm, no foul. Life if good.
Whew… now with all that here is my recommendation:

Type of pump: the electronic water level sensor for both 1 and 2. Reason: I do not like the idea of float switches > it seems to me, as a mechanical device, they are subject to failure as well as simply having something precluding the float from floating > like a line tossed in the storage compartment that is now sitting on top of the float. And I do not like the Auto Run Pump to Check > the brochures say only uses a little bit of juice and all good even long term. I do not like it for 2 reasons: (1) its more juice then the Electronic water level sensor so I am reluctant since for me my boat may be unattended at the dock for 5 or 6 weeks and I am afraid of a drained battery (this may be unfounded but….) and (2) I figure these pumps have only so many hours of run time in them, so if running, even for a little bit, every 15 or 20 mins, over time that is a lot of run time. Would rather save run time for when needed!

These Electronic water level sensor pumps seem to be going by the wayside (no longer made by RULE) but they are still readily available. Here is an example (link) of one of the pumps and I do recommend RULE as the brand.

For the 1st pump: recommend Auto only and at least a 500 GPH capacity (like the link above). Better if a 750 or 1000 GPH.

For the 2nd pump: recommend Manual and Auto and a 2000 GPH capacity > link.

Post how its going and any questions.

 

[scarpint]

Cool, you are game! And I know we are going to both learn from this, for example I have not heard of a bilge pump pumping to another bilge pump before, so this will be fun.

Let’s get started

While you are teasing out the wiring you do need to think about how you want these pumps to work. Based on your post above, the storage compartment pump (let’s call this the 1st pump) does NOT pump overboard and thus all its discharge will be handled by the 2nd (engine compartment?) pump that does pump overboard.

Side question: how many bilge pump switches do you have at the helm? For the below I am going to assume only one and it’s meant to manually control only pump no. 2 (if that is wrong, we can adjust).

[...snip...]

Thanks so much for the reply! I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. Pump #1 (storage area) does have a dedicated line to drain outside the boat. It does not appear to drain to the bilge.

And, there is only one pump switch on the console.

I appreciate your thoughtfulness here, and will be diving (no pun intended) into the work this weekend.

Cheers!

 

[Lpgc]

Quick question - If I fitted a 2nd bilge pump could I Tee the output from both pumps together so still just have the 1 outlet hole in the side of the boat? Or would that mean that if only one pump was pumping it would backflow the other pump so just circulate water around the bilge instead of pumping it out of the side of the boat?

 

[scarpint]

Quick question - If I fitted a 2nd bilge pump could I Tee the output from both pumps together so still just have the 1 outlet hole in the side of the boat? Or would that mean that if only one pump was pumping it would backflow the other pump so just circulate water around the bilge instead of pumping it out of the side of the boat?

Just thinking out loud here, but if the "T" had some kind of back flow prevention mechanism, that might work. That said, I don't know if such a thing might exist.

 

[Lpgc]

Just thinking out loud here, but if the "T" had some kind of back flow prevention mechanism, that might work. That said, I don't know if such a thing might exist.

Yes 2 one way valves would make it work.

Don't know how much (without a one-way valve) a bilge pump would restrict reverse flow when it's off. For my purpose I'd want them to be quite restrictive to reverse flow when turned off.

 

[Chris1956]

Before you redesign the bilge pump system, you might find out how it is currently designed.

 

[Lpgc]

Before you redesign the bilge pump system, you might find out how it is currently designed.

I fitted my current pump in place of the old broken one but didn't dismantle it to check the internal design or try to backflow water through it.

I expect water would backflow through it, what do you think?

 

[Chris1956]

Yes, water will backflow thru a std bilge pump.

Each pump should have a hose that runs either over the side, or to some other place, where water can safely go. You probably would get a good benefit from looking over that boat mechanically, electrically and any other way you can think of. I expect you will need to do most/all of your own work on it.

 

[cyclops222]

Are there fuses within 4 feet of the positive or negative battery post ?

 

[ESGWheel]

Gents, regarding coupling together 2 bilge pumps into a single overboard output, here is a link with more info from a post back in 2010.

@Lpgc > best to start a new post on this topic, suggest the subject line be something akin to “2 Bilge Pumps using a single outlet: good idea or bad?” You will get lots of responses.

 

[Lpgc]

Yes, water will backflow thru a std bilge pump.

Each pump should have a hose that runs either over the side, or to some other place, where water can safely go. You probably would get a good benefit from looking over that boat mechanically, electrically and any other way you can think of. I expect you will need to do most/all of your own work on it.

Thanks. Yes I have looked the boat over, heh, I rebuilt the engine, rebuilt the trim pump, fixed wiring issues.

Gents, regarding coupling together 2 bilge pumps into a single overboard output, here is a link with more info from a post back in 2010.

@Lpgc > best to start a new post on this topic, suggest the subject line be something akin to “2 Bilge Pumps using a single outlet: good idea or bad?” You will get lots of responses.

Thanks, yes I'll read the other thread and won't take continue to take this thread off subject.

 

[cyclops222]

Think the BEST SETUP when doing 2 or more pumps in any boat.
You have to float long enough. Until someone can save you.
That means EACH PUMP will have a single piece of hose going to the thru the hull fitting. Even my 15' Aluminum has 2 isolated pumps. Each on a separate switch and fuse.