Beating out the cup

[takoateli]

Re: Beating out the cup

I think I read about the 2 different pitches on the Turning Point prop site.
Do you have it balanced with a slight prop end bias and do you have stops
to limit up and down and steering limits?
I saw a post about motorized regular canoes flipping over if the motor was turned too far.
I don't know if it applies to square stern and long tail motors.

"Prop end bias"? Say what? Is that cupping, or is that when the pitch seems to flatten out towards the end of the blades?

No up and down steering limits, I do have a down, which I can put in place. It's a stop on the motor's mount. But I've found letting it hit the edge of the boat is fine too.

And no rotational steering limits. The motor can go all the way around 360˚but of course it can't reach the water all the way around. I could probably steer 270˚, so since my motor doesn't have reverse, it would be like it is if the motor was turned way far around so the prop was up along side the boat.

I was worried about my motor tipping the boat over, so I (being over 200lbs) got up on the transom of the empty boat and rocked and rolled as hard as I could and it felt good. Then once I had the motor on the boat I rolled it as far as I could and let it go - a simple test of the center of gravity - to see if the boat wanted to right itself immediately or if it had any indecision about the topic. It righted itself immediately. Since it is a canoe it can't roll over too far or the side starts drinking the river and it goes to the bottom, fast.

Greg

 

[takoateli]

Re: Beating out the cup

Ayuh,... It don't really matter, 'n it'll no doubt be Both happening at the same time....
It'll Vibrate to beat 'ell....

I did the exact opposite to a plastic trollin' motor prop years ago,...
I wanted more pitch for runnin' it on my canoe...
I heated it, 'n bend the blades abit...
It Works, but does vibrate quite alot...

No way in 'ell I could get the blades perfectly Matched...

Well my prop clearly had different pitch on the blades and it had no noticeable vibration.

Maybe your prop was just out of balance? I would doubt they put much care into trolling motor props.

Greg

 

[takoateli]

Re: Beating out the cup

I think I read about the 2 different pitches on the Turning Point prop site.
Do you have it balanced with a slight prop end bias and do you have stops
to limit up and down and steering limits?
I saw a post about motorized regular canoes flipping over if the motor was turned too far.
I don't know if it applies to square stern and long tail motors.

As I read it, that prop on Turning Point has two different "blade geometries" not different pitches.

Greg

 

[steelespike]

Re: Beating out the cup

See what happens when you read what you see but don't see what you read.
Still a pretty cool idea.

 

[takoateli]

Re: Beating out the cup

A couple of days ago my friend Fernando and I took my motor out for another test. What I was testing was the new angle of the anti-ventilation plate, and the propeller pitch which also was modified.

The test started out very well with the motor performing better than it ever had. The anti-ventilation plate really makes a big difference. I can bring the prop right up to just below the surface and it runs the same as when it's deep. Before as it approached the surface it clearly was losing grip and it would cause the water on the surface to spray and shoot in different directions even before the prop broke the surface. The anti-ventilation plate is a must. We drove on up to the Yanomam? village of Ceducuraw? and we visited there for a short while.

When we got back in the boat to go home the motor fell right off the motor mount! This motor weighs more than 200 lbs! Two pieces of the motor mount which I had welded came apart. When I had originally fabricated part of the motor mount I only tack welded it so I could check the angle. I'd forgotten that I had never properly welded it. There were only two tiny little tack welds and they had finally broken off. Little Fernando and I managed to lift the motor back up onto the remaining part of the mount and I secured the motor with a piece of chain and we drove home.

Just as we were pulling in the soft shear pin I had been running for a test parted. I decided to go ahead and bolt the propeller onto the driveshaft since the propeller is extremely durable and I have a flexible coupling on the driveshaft at the motor to provide some give in case the propeller does hit something. I may go back to the soft shear pin if I think it's important.

Something else I noticed when I got the motor up to the house and started working on it was the anti-ventilation plate's mount had partially broken. I knew my first attempt was a little bit flimsy but I was curious to see if it was enough which it clearly wasn't. I've completely changed the amount on the anti-ventilation plate and it's much more sturdy and should be sufficient.

These little tests I've been doing would have been great to show up the things in the motor that need to be changed.

Something else that needed to be improved was the steering arm. I've since beef that up and it should be done.

I'm feeling like the motor is finished, and it's time for some long-distance tests. I recently purchased a 15 hp two-stroke gasoline engine, and I'll make sure I have that with me before I take the diesel on a long test just in case.

 

[steelespike]

Re: Beating out the cup

Nice to see your getting there.Thanks for the update.
How did your speed seem to be?
Its a good thing the motor didn't fall off underway it might have ended up taking a swim with the fishes.
Just wondering if your welds are hot enough. Haven't seen them but if your new to welding sometimes new welders move to fast or don't have enough heat.If there is room the longer the tiller (steering arm)the less effort to control.

 

[takoateli]

Re: Beating out the cup

Nice to see your getting there.Thanks for the update.
How did your speed seem to be?
Its a good thing the motor didn't fall off underway it might have ended up taking a swim with the fishes.
Just wondering if your welds are hot enough. Haven't seen them but if your new to welding sometimes new welders move to fast or don't have enough heat.If there is room the longer the tiller (steering arm)the less effort to control.

Thanks. I had the motor chained to the boat with two different chains and fasteners. It's amazing how many regular outboards have been lost down here. If the motor isn't tied to the boat and one hits an obstacle often the motor will jump up off the transom and disappear into the water. So everybody down here knows to tie the motor to the boat, and people almost always do. My motor is such a big clunker that I knew I'd better use chain. But happily my motor fell into the boat. The motor mount that I have is mounted directly to the hull of the boat and of course centered between the sides and a few feet forward of the transom so it would really have to try to fall into the water.

My welds are pretty good, considering I'm only an average welder who doesn't get much experience, and I'm not using the best of equipment or the freshest of rods. But I do know what a good weld looks like, when one is getting good penetration, and is moving at just the right speed. Sometimes my welts look like that.

I do have a steering arm which is long compared to a normal outboard. Because it's a long legged motor it does take more force on the tiller to turn than an outboard motor requires to turn, but I found it steering trick which works very nicely. The trick is not to steer the boat using the rudder affect of the longtail and fighting with the tiller, but rather turn with power which is more what an outboard motor does. In order to do that all you do is lift the foot out of the water, turn the motor on an angle so the trust will give you the turning effect you want, and drop the foot back in the water. As soon as the foot hits the water the trust turns the boat. It so much easier to turn that way when you need to turn suddenly and sharply. My motor is governed to 3600RPM and it runs at that so the motor barely even sounds different if I pull the prop out of the water at full throttle.

Greg

 

[steelespike]

Re: Beating out the cup

Sometimes just leaning left or right will cause the boat to turn.
How fast do you think the boat goes?

 

[takoateli]

Re: Beating out the cup

Sometimes just leaning left or right will cause the boat to turn.
How fast do you think the boat goes?

Yes I'm sure I can turn my boat by leaning if I had the tiller secured.

I'm thinking am I try to come up with some kind of the forward steering position using pulleys and ropes. I have the boat set up so I could hang a hammock so would be really nice to be able to steer while laying in the hammock.

The last couple of times I tested the but I didn't bring my GPS, but before I had the prop pitch right and before I had the anti-ventilation plate I was doing about 8 miles an hour upriver and 11 down so I guess I was doing about 9 1/2 through the water.

Greg

 

[steelespike]

Re: Beating out the cup

The old inboards 30's 40's and 50's usually used 1/2" iron pipe with an auto type steering box and wheel or what they call stick stering.
A verticle stick or lever attached to the side of the boat. A long pipe from the lever bent to follow the confines of the hull supported along the way with wooden blocks sometimes extended with a pipe coupling.
back to an arm on the rudder. Very simple inexpensive and reliable.Certainly not affected by your jungle weather.
Actually the lever could be anywhere that works.
A hammock to drive from sounds smooth but I might fall asleep.

 

[takoateli]

Re: Beating out the cup

Everyone, thanks so much for all the posts. I've taken more off the cup and made some other changes to the "foot", reinforcing the anti-ventilation plate support, removing some unneeded side fins, and extending the skeg, as well as changing other parts of the motor and it's working great! Thanks for your help. You can see the motor at http://gregihnen.me.