Are 4 strokes as tough as 2 strokes?

Franki · Feb 10, 2003

Re: Are 4 strokes as tough as 2 strokes?

Yeah, lets make peace mr Forktail... I probably am something of a two stroke evangalist, but if I was offered a great deal on a 4 stroke, I'd jump on that too.. (my evangalist ways if thats what they are are probably from years of racing them..) I respect the opinions of all the people in the industry on this list.. I don't prescribe to all of them, but I do respect them... Actually, right now I agree with you.. for the average fishermen, a fourstroke is better.. But if you were racing a boat round a course.. would you choose a 4stroke OB??? They still have uses and are unbeatable in certain situations. Anyway, the arguement is kinda pointless, we all win when engines get better... (and hopefully cheaper) I think one of the reasons that 4stokes are so expensive is that they are the latest rage and as such are priced accordingly.. when the fuss dies down and R and D costs are recovered, hopefully they will be priced accordingly. And the question comes back whenever new technology is released.. peace people

regards Frank

ob · Feb 10, 2003

Re: Are 4 strokes as tough as 2 strokes?

Not to get off of the subject of outboards but merely for imformation purposes.In the early seventies I use to overhaul and maintain large stationary radial GM two stroke engines used to drive generators for the electrolytic processing of aluminum.These engines were originally fuel oil converted to natural gas to minimize down time for servicing. They used mechanical actuation for both via bull gear driven camshafts.The concept of mechanically actuated fuel delivery on two stroke engines has been in existance for some time although it has not evolved into outboard designs.Perhaps in the future an electronically injected radial two stroke will be on the drawing board for outboard motor application.

MikeJ · Feb 10, 2003

Re: Are 4 strokes as tough as 2 strokes?

Franki - you were right! To say you guys are passionate about the subject is an understatement! I just wish I'd found this forum a long time ago, a lot of costly mistakes could have been avoided. Thanks again...

Franki · Feb 11, 2003

Re: Are 4 strokes as tough as 2 strokes?

yup.... Its a hot subject alright... My main perspective is that as a design, there isn't a huge amount of change left to do to four strokes... the amount of development money spend on 4 strokes has brought them to the stage they are now... DOHC VTEC etc etc... 2 strokes have remained largely unchanged for most of 50 years... There is a HUGE amount of development to be done on 2 strokes yet.. and most of them can be done using modified 4 stroke technology... and most of them will be to fix problems inherent with the current 2 stroke design.. As OB pointed out.. some of it has been done already on bigger motors.. The ship (trailer suction dredge) my father is chief engineer on, has two massive Deseil 2 strokes. They have been in service since 72 and have a very different design to normal 2strokes... Large mechanical air pumps are hooked up on these things.. and thats how they solve the problem of getting the exhaust out.. they push it out with highly compressed air. (which also cools the combustion chamber) It would be very surprised if big B started releasing 2 stroke outboards with presurised lubrication, possibly intake valve and different methods of extracting exhaust gasses efficiently.. In their current form they leave sometime to be desired.. but the potential to improve is enormous.. Think about it, the only real current development on the 2strokes up till now has been looper and DFI... In order for the four strokes to get into the same ballgame has taken a huge amount of time and research and remarkable technology.. DOHC, VTEC, multiple valves per head are major examples, but there are dozens of smaller ones also.. That got 4 strokes to the same power/capacity, (roughly) and things like hollow cam shafts have enabled them to reduce the weight alot.. Thats taken alot of work to achive.. had the same work been done on 2strokes, who knows what the result would be?? The thing is that most of what Forktail indicates as being of detrement to 2strokes is fixable.. Simple point of the matter is that every stroke being a power stroke is more effient design, its the problems inherent in getting the mixture in and tbe exhaust out that have thus far caused the issues we all know of with two strokes.. The second stroke of a four stroke is using power not providing it.. and thats why when the issues are resolved at the end of the day.. a two stroke with the current issues resolved will be unbeatable.. I'll bet dollars that that is what big B is doing with Johnyrude. I doubt they bought into OMC for some Suzuki's painted white.. One last point.. The four strokes have certainly not been problem free, do a seach for and snapped camshaft and you'll get some interesting reading from this very forum.. in order to get the capacity and power roughly the same as two strokes has resulted in motors with pretty agressive tuning.. Anyway, right now, I'd take a 4 stoke or a ficht at the drop of a hat... either or... (but it has to be a 2002 or newer ficht.. a big B ficht..) But the quietness of 4 strokes is definately a very enticing extra.... noise is one of my main hates in boating.. So in that respect current 4strokes have it all... I would still love to read some objective comparisions between "big B" fichts and honda/yammy/suki 4's.. Does anyone have any url's to share?? rgds Franki

evin300 · Feb 11, 2003

Re: Are 4 strokes as tough as 2 strokes?

Well said Franki! With the exception of smaller fishin motors, I truly believe that 2-strokes are the future. I also believe that most of the higher cost of 4-strokes is thier complicated design.

KIWI MERCMAN · Feb 11, 2003

Re: Are 4 strokes as tough as 2 strokes?

I've tried to stay out of this discussion, but cant. I was talking to a dealer friend today in Tahiti, and their seeing alot of oil leaks on the new four strokes there. This is a very hot area and has a very high salt rate. This area will find a problem with any brand of outboard before the USA, mark my words if it's happening there, it will happen in the US. We saw a lot of problems with the new year models in Tahiti as they get them as early as June , July the year before and they get used every day. Buy the time the US has them out there working these ones have done a 1000 hr's. Dont get me wrong we saw just as many problems with 2 strokes, DFI and anything else that anybody tried to run in the worst environment that is known to the internal combustion engine. just one example: Merc's red stator, you know the one to fix all stators, came about because of this Area, shame it only took them 10 years. Kiwi

Skinnywater · Feb 11, 2003

Re: Are 4 strokes as tough as 2 strokes?

Franki wrote; "My main perspective is that as a design, there isn't a huge amount of change left to do to four strokes... the amount of development money spend on 4 strokes has brought them to the stage they are now... DOHC VTEC etc etc..." Already in the works directly form Mercedes and BMW involvement in F1 is to do away with the Camshafts, chains/belts, lifters or cam followers and valve springs. This will all be replaced by electronic valve actuation and neumatic valve retention. Now you'll have a 4stroke minus all the extra parts. There is still more to come in the way of friction reducing materials.

what200 · Feb 12, 2003

Re: Are 4 strokes as tough as 2 strokes?

First I'd like to say JimB you made a good post. Second I'd like to say Forktail you make a couple of good points. And then you made several more points backed up by mis-information:

"Lubrication systems can fail in all types of engines." True, but we're talking about outboards here. And anyone with even a little experience or research knows that the oil injection systems on 2-strokes outboards can be problematic. Just try a search on this board alone. You won't find much about 4-stroke oil pump failures.

I actually kinda agree with you on this one, but that is why I disable oil injection on every outboard I own.

"There is a correlation between efficiency and engine life. An engine that works less to provide the same efficiency will generally not wear out as soon." "Nah, it just gets less gas mileage." Surely you aren't saying that, apples for apples, an engine that consistantly works harder (produces more heat, etc) will not wear out faster, and only burns more fuel? Not true. I've had this conversation with Yamaha engineers when I began purchasing my first 4-strokes years ago. Even they claim that hp for hp, the 4-stroke will last longer. I have found that claim to be true in the real world. And theoretically it makes sense too.

There are many variables that impact engine life such as engine type, intended operating range, maintenance, etc. I think to say that fuel efficency is biggest predictor of engine life is incorrect. I know what you are trying to say but I believe that displacement is a better predictor. GENERALLY SPEAKING The more HP you get from a given displacement, the less durable it will be. Now there are some good exceptional examples out there to this such as the Honda Vtec motors. BUT the examples you give are misleading. you said, "200 hp EFI is at 3130 cc's and the 4-stroke 200 EFI is at 3352 cc's" You picked one of the lowest hp to displacement ratio large outboards out there. I think a better comparison would be Mercury's 300x which gets 330 prop hp from 3 liters. For Yamaha's 3.4 4 stroke to do that it would either have to spin really high rpm's, have forced aspiration, or special fuel, and all of these would reduce the durability of the motor.

" Fuel injection. As we know, directly injecting fuel into a 2-stroke is challenging. Again, mainly due to the cylinder temps, scavaging, and transfer porting." "Nah, directly injecting 4 strokes is a bear also." Well, they can hardly be compared. 2-strokes require injection twice as often. And as a result less fuel must be metered at each injection. Plus the fuel is injected into cylinders with higher temperatures, which means it must be controlled more accurately. Injecting high pressures into a hot cylinder further induces combustion timing. Add this timing affect with the critical timing of injection when the piston ports are momentarily closed off. Then we have fuel scavaging, non variable exhaust timing, special spark plugs, and oiling problems to deal with. Of course we all know the history of 2- stroke direct injection problems as a result. 4-strokes don't need this direct injection to meet emission requirements. Regardless the direct injection technology has been proven in 4-strokes through the automotive industry. I've got 85,000 trouble-free miles on one in my driveway.

I agree that a 4 stroke motor is naturally a cleaner motor but I'm not so sure of your conclusions that hurdles of implementing DFI technology is the cause of the troubles that some people have had. Some owners swear by their DFI 2 strokes which leads me to believe that the unlucky owners that had a bad experience was probably due more to quality control issues rather than the design being marginal.

"Electronics have helped this come a long way. 4-strokes have been proven as fuel injected since about the 1950's." "Yes and no." My point is that injecting 2-strokes would be all but impossible without the electronic technology of today. Not so with 4-strokes.

I happen to know of a mechanical fuel injection evinrude looper that is very fast. I'm sure it is a pain in ass to setup but not impossible.

"Again yes and no. Neither 2 strokes nor 4 strokes require tuned exhaust or intake systems. However both benefit from tuned exhaust and intake systems." Without a tuned exhaust system, a 2-stroke can not even come close to producing it's potential power. And even with a tuned exhaust, that exhaust can only be tuned for one running rpm, not the entire power band. This again relates to efficiency and most importantly, power. This is why you find variable exhaust valves on 2-stroke snowmobiles and motorcycles. A 4-stroke on the other hand does not use engine resonance to assist the intake charge (reed valves) or aid with fuel scavaging. Exhaust design has little affect on 4-stroke performance. In fact usually the less restrictive, the better.

As Jim said, 2 strokes can benefit tremendously from a tuned exhaust, but they can still produce great power with the expansion chambers you are refering to. In fact, on Mercury's racing inlines the motor often had 3 short megaphones coming off of the exhaust port; very little tuning there. I've been told by those that know O/B tuning better than me that they have actually pulled the tuner completely out a 200 mid and saw little performance difference. You also have referenced scavenging several times, but 4 stroke scavenging is not all that unlike a 2 stroke. If you were to look at 4 stroke that is timed for high speed operation then you would notice that intake and exhaust valves are both open for a period of time.

"A better analogy would be constantly driving uphill because on the water that's really what you're doing. You never get to coast, just like going up a steep hill." I disagree. Unless a boat is seriously underpowered, an outboard is generally used momentarily at full-throttle to get on step, and then throttled back to run. From there it's just a matter of keeping momentum. Much is similar with a car...you must constantly apply throttle, even on a level free-way, to maintain speed. When coasting, the engine actually takes on a force called engine braking stress. Where I live the roads remind me of the ocean....up and down.

I'm not real sure what the argument is here, but what I think Jim is trying to say is that marine engines in general have to produce greater power to maintain a given speed when compared to automobiles. For a given car, it might take 300 HP to make it go 0-60 in 5 seconds but probably only takes 30 HP to maintain that speed on level ground.

"The argument about reliability takes time to answer. 2 strokes have been around forever." Some of us that have run both 2-strokes and 4-strokes for extensive time have already "been there and done that". Calender time really means nothing. It is actual engine time that matters. A 20 year old outboard that's run 100 hours each year will obviously out-live a 10 year old outboard that's run 500 hours each year. 2-strokes do have a power-to-weight advantage....for now. And they are more inexpensive to purchase. After that there is no advantage. 4-strokes are Cadillac.

I'm glad that you have had good experiences with 4 strokes because the consumer wins when there is good competition. But I don't see how age does not affect reliability. Even when not in use, things go bad like electronics, gaskets, rubber seals, etc. Once 4 strokes get close to the power to weight ratio of 2 stokes I'll get on board, but currently there isn't a 4 stroke being sold that will help me get my bassboat to 90mph. And both mercury and bombardier are both betting they can do better with 2 strokes for their performance O/B's than 4 strokes.

Franki · Feb 12, 2003

Re: Are 4 strokes as tough as 2 strokes?

I'd like to make a quick comment on this comment of Forktails... ######## I disagree. Unless a boat is seriously underpowered, an outboard is generally used momentarily at full-throttle to get on step, and then throttled back to run. From there it's just a matter of keeping momentum. Much is similar with a car...you must constantly apply throttle, even on a level free-way, to maintain speed. When coasting, the engine actually takes on a force called engine braking stress. Where I live the roads remind me of the ocean....up and down. ######## Next time you are in a 30 wheel rig doing 60km hour, tell the driver to put it in neutal and not touch the brakes. (do it on a level surface of course) See how many meters it takes to slow down to say 10kph.. Then do the same thing in your car... again, see how many meters it takes to slow down... Then get in your boat.. and do the same thing, and see how long it takes to slow down.. Can you guess the result?? I think you can... Thats why Marine enviroment is much harder on motors then land vehicles.. Displacing air is much easier then displacing water. Then factor in stronger winds, tides waves etc... Also, when was the last time you drove your car at 5300rpm for hours and hours??? rgds Franki

butlp · Feb 12, 2003

Re: Are 4 strokes as tough as 2 strokes?

Mike, Looks like you've started another Franki verses Forky battle

To try and help with your question. All of the points above are very valid and as most people have told you it is very important to the longevity of your motor to get the prop pitch correct. I purchased a new merc 50 HP 4 stroke last season and after breaking-in the motor I too could not reach recommended WOT RPM's. My local dealer lent me a number of props to test and finally exchanged my prop for the correct size. I think most dealers if they sold you a motor will gladly do this as long as it's not damaged.

clanton · Feb 12, 2003

Re: Are 4 strokes as tough as 2 strokes?

What automoible engine sold in the US is direct injected? Direct injected meaning injected into the cylinder/combustion chamber?

KIWI MERCMAN · Feb 12, 2003

Re: Are 4 strokes as tough as 2 strokes?

Unsure what models of it are sold in the USA but Mitsubishi's GDI ( gas direct injection ) is now very common in there range. Where do you think Yamaha got their system, you dont think they disigned it themselfs. Kiwi

Forktail · Feb 12, 2003

Re: Are 4 strokes as tough as 2 strokes?

clanton, every Ford Powerstroke, Chevy Duramax, and Dodge Cummins is direct injected. Yes these are diesels, but they are 4-strokes with a great history of durability and reliability. Millions and millions of them. FYI, the 2-stroke Detroits are history.

Forktail · Feb 12, 2003

Re: Are 4 strokes as tough as 2 strokes?

Franki, I knew you were going to come up with that half-baked analogy.

First of all hp is hp, whether it is in a boat or a truck. In either case, that hp produces the same amount of work. So a 250 hp marine engine has the potential to provide the same amount of work as a 250 hp automotive engine and likewise. Now if you are saying that the 250 hp outboard is constantly pushing its maximum hp rating, then again I will tell you the boat is under-powered. If it is too hard for that 250 hp to push the boat, then an additional 250 hp may be needed. See, it's all relative. Because water is harder to displace, more hp is used to displace it. A boat should not be powered so that it has to run WOT at maximum hp in order to perform. Rather it should be able to easily "cruise". Although it was some other member's idea to compare marine engines to automotive engines, I will say this: Many underpowered over-the-road trucks are in the 250-300 hp range. They are constantly run at their maximum hp....sometimes for a million miles. And many 250 hp bass boats run with practically no water displacement at all (flying). When powered properly, the stresses on an outboard aren't as exagerated as you would have us believe. Winds? Lets see...most boaters don't go out in winds above 38 mph (small craft warning), or above 39 mph (gale warning). Yet these winds are common throughout the interstates for truckers. And what makes you think a boat has more wind resistance than a semi truck and trailer? Please. Tides? Tides effect speed of the craft. They add no more stress to the outboard....unless you increase throttle to compesate for the speed loss. I guess this would be like driving the truck 65 mph in a 55 mph zone. Right? Waves? I've never seen a wave 3 miles high with an 8% grade (thank god). Maybe I should compare hills, stop and go traffic, and long overnight idles? Also, when coasting a boat there is an outboard in the water acting as additional drag. So you're talking about more than just the difference of displacing water vs. air. Can you think of something we could drag behind the truck? Maybe the lower unit of an outboard? How about we really make it easy on the truck and throw the exhaust (Jake) brake...or isn't that enough engine stress for you? What about a big 4-stroke generator that runs continuously under load year after year after year after year, only shutting off for oil changes? Come on Franki. Outboards work hard on boats, but nothing that deserves an excuse for a short life. Maybe it's time for you to try a 4-stroke?

flatsman · Feb 12, 2003

Re: Are 4 strokes as tough as 2 strokes?

Heck , you folks ---most of them is rice burners ---both merc and evinrude can perform with the 4 strokes in noise level and fuel effiency. Those darn 4 strokes will turn in oil-leaking over- priced boat anchors.. Just wait till the moisture get into all that electrical stuff on them . I fish right beside some of the new 4 strokes and the new two strokes and they both idle down the river at about the same noise level... I believe that both are over-priced --Heck ya can buy a whole car for what they cost.. But worst of all , how many of the 4 strokes are made in my home country of AMERICA ---AMEN and that is all I have to say about that.

evin300 · Feb 12, 2003

Re: Are 4 strokes as tough as 2 strokes?

Just listen to the sound of a marine engine while plowing through the water. It sounds like a hard working engine to me, far from what my car (coaster) is doing. Just no comparison IMO. Also, Direct Injection and Fuel Injection have one similarity (injection) but are totally different otherwise.

Forktail · Feb 12, 2003

Re: Are 4 strokes as tough as 2 strokes?

what200, "mis-information"?? You didn't do a very good job of pointing out any of that misinformation

"I actually kinda agree with you on this one, but that is why I disable oil injection on every outboard I own." Disabling the oil injection system on all of your 2-strokes reinforces my comment. I don't see any misinformation there. "I think to say that fuel efficency is biggest predictor of engine life is incorrect." Well, I'm glad you said it because I did not. I guess that makes it your misinformation, since you don't seem to understand efficiency of engines. Fuel is only half of the efficiency concept. The other half is how much power is produced. So I'll say it again.... "There is a correlation between efficiency and engine life. An engine that works less to provide the same efficiency will generally not wear out as soon." "I believe that displacement is a better predictor. GENERALLY SPEAKING The more HP you get from a given displacement, the less durable it will be." Exaclty. 2-strokes are smaller displacement, higher hp engines, and according to you this makes them less durable. "BUT the examples you give are misleading. you said, "200 hp EFI is at 3130 cc's and the 4-stroke 200 EFI is at 3352 cc's" You picked one of the lowest hp to displacement ratio large outboards out there.' What's misleading was Franki's post about 4-strokes needing twice the displacement to produce the same power as a 2-stroke. I easily proved that wrong, because it's not true. Sometimes the truth hurts. It would be your misinformation to say that since the 300 hp Merc is 3L that it would take a 6L 4-stroke to equal that 300 hp. "but I'm not so sure of your conclusions that hurdles of implementing DFI technology is the cause of the troubles that some people have had." Excuse it for quality control or whatever you want. DFI technology came with many pains, some were the most severe to ever hit the marine outboard industry (Ficht). It was uncharted ground. Whether it be HPDI, Optimax, or Ficht, they all have had more than their share of problems, at least compared to EFI or carbed 2 and 4-strokes. My point was that it's the direct injection theory and it's critical operation and tolerances itself that has caused the technology and quality control problems. "I happen to know of a mechanical fuel injection evinrude looper that is very fast. I'm sure it is a pain in ass to setup but not impossible." It's unclear what "misinformation" you are arguing here or what point you're trying to make? My point is that without electronics today's direct injection would be all but impossible. Was it that hard to understand? "In fact, on Mercury's racing inlines the motor often had 3 short megaphones coming off of the exhaust port; very little tuning there." That's because they're run at WOT while racing. Not idle, midrange, or cruise rpm. The "megaphones" do nothing for the entire power band...only top end. Again you reinforce my point for the need of a variable tuned exhaust with a 2-stroke. Besides, you're talking racing. Don't "mislead" the readers here that our 2-strokes perform best without tuned exhausts. They absolutely need them. 4-strokes don't. "You also have referenced scavenging several times, but 4 stroke scavenging is not all that unlike a 2 stroke." Yea, so where's my "misinformation"? Obviously all engines scavage. Please don't "mislead" readers here to believe that a 4-stroke scavages like a 2-stroke. 4-strokes control the valve timing. 2-strokes do not. That is, 4-strokes can open and close valves whenever they want to, independent of piston position or combustion timing. A 2-stroke can't, because the transfer ports are dependent upon piston position and combustion timing. "marine engines in general have to produce greater power to maintain a given speed when compared to automobiles." Work is work. Whether a 250 hp engine is producing 250 hp in a truck or boat, they both do the same amount of work. If that work is displacing air and pavement or water it doesn't matter. "But I don't see how age does not affect reliability. Even when not in use, things go bad like electronics, gaskets, rubber seals, etc." Yes, but that would be true for all outboards, whether 2-stroke or 4-stroke. The seals, gaskets, and electronics would have equal chance of needing repair due to age. The original post was about actually running the engine, not storing it. Here, time or engine hours is what matters, not how long it sat in the garage. Again, the point is that some people claim their outboard is 50 years old blah, blah, blah, when in fact many probably have more hours and wear and tear on a 10 year old outboard. Misinformation? Hypocricy is alive.

Sand Bass · Feb 12, 2003

Re: Are 4 strokes as tough as 2 strokes?

Check out my post entitled "Must read...2-stroke vs 4-stroke comparison.

Franki · Feb 12, 2003

Re: Are 4 strokes as tough as 2 strokes?

I don't know the best way to express what I concieve in my head... but I've never let that stop me before. 1. The almost double capacity I was refering to was single cylinder engines, namely motoX.. and its a fact, the only way for the four strokes to have a chance was to allow them to run in the 250cc 2stroke class when they were actually more then 400cc.. That is a FACT.. check it out yourself. As for your longevity /performance comments.. what a load of rubbish, you are comparing apples and oranges... When there were no 4 stroke outboards to compare with, the two strokes capacity/HP wasn't that different to what it is now.. they didn't settle on those capacities to beat the 4 strokes.. they did it because a 2 stoke loses less power then a four stroke (every stoke is a power stoke and no cam/valves to move around at high speed.)and that they don't need to be any bigger.. you make it sound like they are designed to rev their rings out all the time to do anything useful.. we know thats not true.... also, last time I checked, the WOT on the four strokes seems to be higher then the two's.... and max HP seems to be produced high up in the rev range.. thats usually a sign of an agressively tuned motor.. would that not reduce longevity by your own analogy??? Actually, if E-tec is as good as it sounds, 2 stokes already don't scavenge.. fuel injected AFTER the exhaust valve has shut... and since as you put it, on a 2stroke that can't be changed because the ports and pistons are fixed. (which incidenly isn't true either.. study up on AETC, It stands for Automatic Exhaust Timing Control and is a means by which the size and shape of the exhaust port are changed at diferent rpm... and its been in use on motocross for about 20 years now.. well establisted and tested technology.) My car has a 4 litre multipoint injected 4 stoke, it sits at 100kph doing about 2k rpm... meaning that the engine is not working much at all due to its multi ratio gearbox and less friction. at this point, its using about 1/3 of its max HP, probably a good bit less. My boat has 2 stoke, (17 foot half cabin, no deep V and narrow beam to boot.) 100HP.. (if anything its overpowered.) but in order to get to my cruzing speed, (which is closer to 80kph then 100) i am still doing more then 2/3'rds of my max rpm and using alot more of its available HP.... And in the boat I don't have gear changes to keep the boat in its max power range while speeding up. As an example, in australia we have the venerable holden 308 V8 engine.. powering a million old holdens.. (up to 199x something when they swapped to the 350 chev.) Anyway, these motors last forever in a car.. they don't have to work hard to do normal stuff, so they lasted.. Then people started putting them in boats, speed boats, cruzers etc... All of a sudden they start having rods though the blocks and all manner of other failures.. Why? they are just doing the same "work" (and don't tell me its corrusion, that doesn't cause snapped rods untill after you use it as an anchorv

They fail because they are pushing a higer average load then they were in a car.. they are doing it for longer periods, and without multi ratio gearboxs to keep the load in its proper power range... A friend of mine owns an outboard repair/wrecking shop that also sidelines setting up V8's for marine use.. and to hear his stories would open your eyes alittle... The loads are very different and not comparable.. marine and land engines are not under the same loads. Also, HP is not the only issue. torque plays a big roll also... without turning force, all of this is mute.. and the simple matter of it is, per given capacity, 2 strokes generally have more. The end result of all this, is that you are not going to convince me that 4 strokes are better, and likewise I am not going to convince you they are not..... Its personal choice, right now the 4 strokes have some advantages,, up till now the 2 strokes have had more... but stuff like that e-tec will probably have the 4 strokes scrambling to catch up again.. there is no clear winner here yet, and its possible there never will be. regards Franki

Franki · Feb 12, 2003

Re: Are 4 strokes as tough as 2 strokes?

Forktail... One last thing... do not take these discussions as personal attacks.. I don't mean them that way and i am sure the others don't either... You seem to respond like we have questioned your parentage when we discuss this stuff... There is no ill feeling here on my part.. I actually do enjoy the discussions sometimes.. peace bro.. (that doesn't mean you shouldn't argue with me either.. please go right ahead.. I actually look forward to your posts when I am feeling good.) regards Franki

Are 4 strokes as tough as 2 strokes?

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