Anybody else listening to W?

Limited-Time

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

I just wanted to be the 200th post in this thd. IOW shamless post pad. :eek: :eek: ;)
 

QC

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

Originally posted by woodrat:<br /> All I'm saying is that you can't wipe evil from the face of the earth, while doing evil and making excuses for it. is that so hard to understand? What a contortionist act!
I agree you can't wipe out all evil, but I can surely fight against evil and then explain to you that some evil people within our midst have done evil things in our name. Evil people do evil things in the name of good all the time. They are simply more evil people . . . I am not sure what the point is other than that anybody who tries to explain or understand what happened at Abu Ghraib is somehow evil too . . . :confused:
 

Kalian

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

Rodbolt, I looked around the net a bit,(had a little free time today) and came up with this. <br /><br /> http://63.247.134.60/~pobbs/archives/001486the_iraqisyrian_border.html <br /><br /> It looks like the U.S. has been working with Iraqi troops on securing the syrian border. They have a 15ft high 200 mile berm along the Syrian border, and several outposts as well. I didn't search the site very deeply, don't know how reliable you will find this, or what the details are.
 

woodrat

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

"I am not sure what the point is other than that anybody who tries to explain or understand what happened at Abu Ghraib is somehow evil too . "<br /><br />No, the point is more that if one is opposed to "evil" to the point one would engage in an endless war to eliminate it, then it is intellectually dishonest and hypocritical to ignore or make excuses for evil committed by your team, so to speak. And I have heard mostly denial and excuse-making for the AG prison evil whenever I bring it up here, mostly coming from those who want to wage war on evil. Which makes it really hard to take those people and their viewponts seriously.
 

txswinner

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

I need a post so here.<br /><br />No WMD. If they had as described before invasion we could have easily tracked them to Syria by satellite so cut the crapola. NO WMD<br /><br />Daddy said do not upset the balance of power. Jr. will not listen now we are in the middle of a heck of a mess. <br /><br />Let us blame it on Clinton and Monica and I agree, Gore might have won and no W if that had not happened.<br /><br />Now we can not help our own people, Katrina and Rita because of shortage of funds.<br /><br />I know let's spend our money building back Iraq so they can blow it up.
 

POINTER94

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

QC,<br /><br />Evil people do evil things in the name of good all the time.<br /><br />Are you talking about lawyers?<br /><br />Woodrat, I don't think that I would like, appreciate or condone what is proported to have happened at AG. I think people using it as a lever to undermind the war effort are being disingenuous. In the big picture, yea, it is inconsequental. On the individual level if this was done to terrorists, for the purposes of saving the innocent, I can allow myself to sleep at night. It is an isolated event not a rule of engagement for the US forces, and therefor it remains irrelavant except by those who wish to marginalize the war effort. It is those who identify it as a US atrocity and not the abuses of an individuals authority who are attempting to perpetrate a fraud on the US's effort.
 

Skinnywater

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

Whoa there fella, you're spinnin' it so hard the obvious is a blur. :) <br /><br />
So if #2 is a result of #1, then it can be clearly argued that we are not using the Military for Nation Building except that we are already there. So we could take the moral low-ground and simply leave. Or we could take the moral high-round and help get these people on their feet after years of brutal dictatorship rule.
Except that we have a primary responsibility to ourselves. It is supposed to matter to you that our boys are getting shot up in the process. <br />I think we owe it to ourselves, since we are already there, to be on the offensive and destroy the evil you keep mentioning. That is probably the only way to make it a "win/win" for US and the Iraqi's at this point. <br />The moral high ground is to defeat our enemy decisively and quickly. Therefore peace will soon follow decisively. For the Iraqi's and US.<br /><br />I was just sitting here thinking after posting this and I thought about the best way to describe how we are fighting the war in Iraq.... "Aggressive Passiveness" :confused:
 

QC

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

Originally posted by POINTER94:<br /> QC,<br /><br />Evil people do evil things in the name of good all the time.<br /><br />Are you talking about lawyers?<br />
No, I was thinkin' more like a child molesting Catholic priest.
 

jimonica

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

Pointer said,<br /><br />"Clinton decimated the armed forces with his contempt and neglect."<br /><br />Sorry to hold your feet to the fire on this subject Pointer. But, Rodbolt supplied us with some pretty convincing figures that showed Clinton continued to keep military spending right there with the previous administration. And the Republican controlled congress and Clinton worked together to keep spending at sufficient levels throughout Clinton's presidency. <br /><br />So I'm asking you in all sincerity, how did Clinton "decimate" the military? Do you have any facts or figures to back this assertion?<br /><br />The reason I'm pushing you on this is because I've heard this "decimate the military" charge for quite a few years now and if there is some truth to this I would really like to know. I just can't seem to find any evidence of it.
 

woodrat

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

"It is those who identify it as a US atrocity and not the abuses of an individuals authority who are attempting to perpetrate a fraud on the US's effort."<br /><br />You commit atrocities under the color of the US flag, wearing a US uniform, and it really doesn't matter to the relatives of someone who got tortured at AG prison whether it was official US policy or not. They now hate the US. That is bad strategy for winning hearts and minds. <br /><br />And one could pretty reasonably argue that in the military structure, the "individual's authority" doesn't/shouldn't exist. There is a chain of command, a set of orders and instructions, and there are officers along that chain of command whose job it is to make sure those orders are carried out. If for some reason a bunch of individuals take it upon themselves to go freelance, then you have a serious problem in the chain of command, and not just the people at the bottom are responsible. And I think that it is not a bunch of liberals who are using AG to undermine the war effort. The very fact that that happened undermined the war effort and puts US soldiers at more risk than they would have been otherwise. It is not the folks back home who are talking about it that are the problem, it is the fact that it ever happened at all that is the problem. Denial and downplaying just legitimize what is not legitimate.<br /><br />"On the individual level if this was done to terrorists, for the purposes of saving the innocent, I can allow myself to sleep at night."<br /><br />What if it was done to innocents, for no good reason at all?
 

rodbolt

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

baby I aint got no facts nor figgues. however I was active duty in some o dem yeers.<br /> clinton was the best thing ever happened to a ground pounder or a sailor.<br /> the hati and mogadishu unplesantnes excepted.<br />clinton did not decimate the military he did put a herti on the idustrail/military complex cause he made them fund their own silly resarch.<br /> pointere did ya even look at some of what I linked? I looked at your mud school pics.<br /> can ya help me defend W's policices since the end of major combat?<br /> I actually like W, he is like my cousins monkey, however he seems to have surronded himself with tigers.
 

jimonica

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

Pointer,<br /><br />Okay this is the 4th time your being asked to explain your statement that Clinton "decimated" the military.<br /><br />About a year ago my bil was throwing around that exact same "decimated" charge. The timing couldn't have been bettter because about 3 days later the Bush administration released a list of 33 military bases and installations that were scheduled for closure. I simply pointed this out to him, and the Clinton "decimating" our military charges hasn't been brought up since. :) <br /><br />I suspect Pointer you have know proof either of Clinton deciminating our military.<br /> :p
 

POINTER94

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

jmonica, given the facts provided you could have found this yourself if you were genuinely interested.<br /><br />The military inherited by the Bush administration was not just the Clinton administration's legacy. A Republican Congress added some $75 billion in additional resources to the Clinton defense budgets between 1995-2000, funds that prevented the development of serious readiness problems within the U.S. military, especially given the deployment of U.S. forces overseas during the 1993-2000 period — a total of 44 times. <br /><br /> In addition, there is a lag time during which the full impact of Clinton-era defense decisions would actually affect the deployed U.S. military. At a Center for Strategic and International Studies conference I spoke at in 2001, the center's president — former Clinton era-defense official admitted that the procurement portion of the final Clinton five-year defense plan was under-funded by at least 40 percent, and if allowed to continue at the proposed funding level, would have resulted in a military unable to effectively deploy even in those areas where it is now engaged. Underfunded programs included the F-22, the C-17, missile defense, tankers, space assets, Navy shipbuilding and the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF). <br /><br /> During the Clinton administration, massive numbers of ships, planes, tanks and people were eliminated from the armed services, far in excess of the proposed cuts promised by candidate Clinton during the 1992 campaign. In ''Putting People First,'' the then-serving governor of Arkansas proposed reducing the final defense budget of the Bush administration by some $60 billion over 5 years. At the time, with the end of the Cold War and the triumph of the West over the Soviet Union, such a reduction was not viewed with much alarm — even within the defense department. However, it was widely assumed that the Clinton folks, if elected, might very well end up trashing the defense establishment to a far greater extent than the cuts promised in the 1992 campaign. <br /><br /> And indeed, in 1993-9, the Clinton administration cuts hundreds of billions of dollars from the previous administration's last proposed budget, including the addition of tens of billions in additional non-defense expenditures that further reduced funding available for necessary military projects. Some years later, Sen. Sam Nunn, the retiring ranking member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, estimated that overall defense budget cuts from 1986 through 1996 totaled some $1 trillion, when compared to the funds required to maintain a steady-state military force. During the Clinton administration, the U.S. went on what many experts call a procurement holiday. The Joint Chiefs had frequently stated the need for an annual procurement budget of at least $60 billion, a requirement echoed by former Secretary of Defense William Cohen. Former Secretary of Defense Harold Brown said DOD needed $50 billion in additional spending a year. However, in order to placate its anti-defense Hill allies, the Clinton administration proposed defense budgets that misrepresented procurements in the out-years. The actual funding being proposed would either be reduced in real terms or barely keep pace with inflation. <br /><br />Bush administration proposed an immediate supplemental for fiscal 2001, the year starting October 1, 2000, at the end of the Clinton administration, in order to begin the process of providing necessary and additional funds for the Defense Department. <br /><br /><br />U.S. Military Hits Lowest Readiness Levels in Years, Analyst Says<br /><br />WASHINGTON, Sept. 18, 2000—Reeling from a combination of troop cuts, slashed budgets and overuse, the U.S. military is suffering from its lowest state of readiness since the end of the Cold War, a new Heritage Foundation study says. <br /><br />Between 1992 and 2000, the Clinton administration cut national defense by more than 500,000 personnel and $50 billion in inflation-adjusted dollars, notes defense policy analyst Jack Spencer. A just-released Congressional Budget Office report finds that military funding would need to increase by $50 billion a year simply to maintain the size of today’s forces.<br /><br />Since 1992, Spencer notes, the Army has lost four active divisions and two reserve divisions—30 percent of its staff. The Air Force is down by five tactical squadrons, 178 bombers and 30 percent of its active personnel. The naval fleet has gone from 393 ships in 1992 to 316, and the Navy has decreased its active duty personnel by 30 percent. Even the Marines have lost personnel—22,000 since 1992.<br /><br />Despite this drastic downsizing, the pace of military deployments has increased 16-fold over the last eight years, including missions in Somalia (1993), Haiti (1994), Bosnia (1996), and Iraq and Kuwait (1998). As a result of this over-extension, all four services—Air Force, Army, Marines and Navy—face a shortage of modernized equipment and low morale that is driving more and more troops out of the military completely.<br /><br />"Nearly a decade of misdirected policy coupled with a myopic modernization strategy has rendered America’s armed forces years away from top form," writes Spencer, who notes that readiness refers to a unit’s ability to accomplish its assigned mission. Logistics, available spare parts, training, equipment and morale all contribute to readiness, he says.<br /><br />Even those who deny a readiness problem can’t claim the United States is prepared to fulfill its own "National Security Strategy," which states that the country must be able to fight and win two major regional conflicts during overlapping timeframes, Spencer says. Key senior military officers—including Commandant of the Marines Corps Gen. James Jones, former Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Jay Johnson, and Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Michael Ryan—have expressed serious concerns about the ability of their respective services to carry out this strategy.<br /><br />The services are also short of critical equipment, including night-vision goggles, chemical-agent monitors and global-positioning units, Spencer says. Some equipment is aging faster than it can be replaced, such as 20-year-old U.S. fighter aircraft that were designed to last 15 years. A Pentagon spokesman said earlier this year that spare parts are so scarce that the Air Force has been forced to "cannibalize" perfectly good aircraft.<br /><br />"When smaller, more poorly equipped forces deploy for more missions, the result is increased wear-and-tear and longer deployments for servicemen," Spencer says. "The result is a military weakened by aging equipment, low morale and inadequate training."<br /><br />The Clinton administration has deployed U.S. troops 34 times in less than eight years. During the entire Cold War (a 40-year period), the military was committed to comparable deployments just 10 times, Spencer writes. Today, for example, the Army has 144,716 soldiers in 126 countries, with the Kosovo campaign alone costing U.S. taxpayers $15 billion to date.<br /><br />Spencer says it’s no surprise the military is not meeting its retention rates, particularly when more than 5,000 personnel are forced to live on food stamps. A 1999 Navy survey to gauge the morale of its junior officers found 82 percent answered negatively, citing poor leadership, inadequate pay, and insufficient parts and equipment. The Air Force missed its 1999 retention goal by 5,000 airmen and expects to be down 1,500 pilots by the end of 2002.<br /><br />Try this: http://www.heritage.org/Research/MissileDefense/BG1394es.cfm <br /><br />And this: http://www.vaildaily.com/apps/pbcs....0414/COLUMS/104140015&SearchID=73192213067062 <br /><br />Hell this was a tv show on that right wing network PBS: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/future/experts/warready.html <br /><br /><br />Now how about answering some of my questions?<br /><br />Why is it that we can execute someone with a drone, but can't listen to his phone calls? Third request<br /><br />Where is Kerry's master plan? Second Request<br /><br />Who are "those" people? Second Request<br /><br />How exactly would running away help the Iraqi people? Third Request.
 

dogsdad

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

Pointer, you should know better than throwing facts out there when all they have to do to refute you is post a link to some whacked-out marxist's blog.<br /><br /> :D
 

woodrat

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

"Where is Kerry's master plan? Second Request"<br /><br />You guys still yammering about Kerry?! Who cares! he never had a plan, and is no longer an issue. Guess I shouldn't be surprised, some of you are still fighting the Clinton administration.<br /><br />"Why is it that we can execute someone with a drone, but can't listen to his phone calls? Third request"<br /><br />I think if you started executing US citizens with drones, on US soil, then you would have a comparison. And probably even some conservative W lovers would be getting a little nervous, especially if the drones are launching rockets through roofs in the suburbs.<br /><br />"How exactly would running away help the Iraqi people? Third Request."<br /><br />Since when has "helping the Iraqi people" been the reason we were over there? And how exactly is staying until all the "bad guys" are dead going to help them?<br /><br />Just curious...
 

woodrat

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

"Huh??"<br /><br />Just like I said. Do the Iraqis really want us in their country shooting bad guys indefinitely? Maybe at some point they'd like to be rid of us, or at least be free to make their own determinations about which bad guys need to be shot.
 

POINTER94

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

"Where is Kerry's master plan? Second Request"<br /><br />You guys still yammering about Kerry?! Who cares! he never had a plan, and is no longer an issue. Guess I shouldn't be surprised, some of you are still fighting the Clinton administration.<br /><br />NON ANSWER, PLEASE JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION. THIS WAS YOUR CANDIDATE THAT YOU DEDICATED TIME TRYING TO CONVICE THE REST OF US TO VOTE FOR.<br /><br /><br />"Why is it that we can execute someone with a drone, but can't listen to his phone calls? Third request"<br /><br />I think if you started executing US citizens with drones, on US soil, then you would have a comparison. And probably even some conservative W lovers would be getting a little nervous, especially if the drones are falling through roofs in the suburbs.<br /><br />Deflection, but again other non-answer<br /><br />"How exactly would running away help the Iraqi people? Third Request."<br /><br />Since when has "helping the Iraqi people" been the reason we were over there? And how exactly is staying until all the "bad guys" are dead going to help them?<br /><br />A question with a question, non-answer. WHY NO ANSWERS?
 

txswinner

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

Pointer as I understand your answer, the R congress had control and stopped Clinton from doing what he said and therefore no reductions, but since there were less tanks etc it was Clinton that did this cause that fits the arguement.<br /><br />The congress gets all or none of the credit. The reduction in tanks etc. is usually decisions made by military commanders either in replacing obsolete or upgrading. The budget is determined by the congress and the only thing the president directly controls is the veto unless he also controls the congress. You know simple stuff.
 

txswinner

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

Your questions:<br /><br />1. Drone killing should be done to a KNOWN enemy with minimal non-combatant involvement.<br /><br />Spying on citizens strikes against the foundation of our freedoms and must be tempered (warrants) to make sure it is not a witch hunt. It is the ole give an inch take a mile syndrome.<br /><br />2. Help Iraqi's? You guys told me we going in to remove Saddam cause he had WMD that he was going to attack us with. When did the administration come up with this we attack to help the Iraqis. The administration lied to get us into a war and now it has become a profitable business for their buddies. Specifically Halliburton (formerly and oil field company). How to get out? True Administration response; WHY it is profitable. Hey young soldiers die on motorcyles anyway so why not for a profit.<br /><br />This whole war is a gift from the W. administration. I know some hate the so called liberal etc. but if being against killing young soldiers so this administration can try to save face and make money the call me a LIBERAL, I think I like it.
 
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