Another NO spark thread...1961 Kiekhaefer 800 FGS

[hardtailcfl]

I acquired this motor after it had been sitting for approx 15 years. By the looks of things it is safe to assume it was not winterized properly...

So after checking compression, changing impeller, and gear lube I tried to fire it yesterday....no go.

I am brand new to points style ignition systems but after some reading I think I have a decent grasp on how they work.

So using a spark tester first tested for spark at the plug wires...NO

Used the spark tester again at both coils and still nothing.

Took the distributor apart, cleaned and regapped the points to .006 according the Mercury manual. Filed down (gently) the rotor tips and contact points in the dist cap. Put it all back together and still nothing.

I know to test the coils with an Ohm meter but I can't seem to find how or what the readings should be.

So I THINK I've narrowed it down to either coils or condensors. Anything I'm missing?

Thanks in advance!!

 

[hardtailcfl]

Re: Another NO spark thread...1961 Kiekhaefer 800 FGS

bump...

 

[Fuzzytbay]

Re: Another NO spark thread...1961 Kiekhaefer 800 FGS

I have the same motor, except mine has spark. It might be a wireing issue. DO you have the control box, and wireing harness? Don't try and start it without that. post back and let me know, I'll try and guide you though it.

 

[hardtailcfl]

Re: Another NO spark thread...1961 Kiekhaefer 800 FGS

Awesome thank you!! I do have the control box and wiring harness as mentioned. Turning the key it just cranks and cranks...no fire

 

[Fuzzytbay]

Re: Another NO spark thread...1961 Kiekhaefer 800 FGS

Ok I hate to ask you to do this......I did, here is why. On mine, it would fire up when I turned the key to start. As soon as I let go, it would die out. Turned out to be the ignition switch, and nothing more. On that motor, in the off possition, all the wires are going to the key are not connected. When you turn the key to run, the white wire, black wire and the wire, not going to the start solinoid are all connected together. When you turn the switch to start, then the wire going to the solinoid gets power, and engages the solinoid, thus starting the starter motor. So, I would recomend you take apart the control box, and examine the ignition switch for continuity between the terminals. NOw the reason I didn't mention the third wires colour, is because it could be orange, or salmon. Anyhow, I'll post a link to the wireing harness diagrams, etc, for you.
http://www.maxrules.com/MERCwireindex.html
Use the all models thru 1965
You will have to look at the one for the 700-800-850 FGS that should be yours.
You will also need to look at the one that is for mercElectric Switch's
that one will show you the key diagrams.
There are two diagrams for the 700-800-850 FGS
One is for the actual motor wireing, the second show the harness wireing.
That should be enough to help you track down the why's of the lack of spark
it would not be IMHO the condensers.
OHM out the stator too. Disconect one of the yellow wires,from the rectifier, and measure the resistance between the two yellow wires. Any reading, really below infinity is good, unless its zero, mine was about 3 ohms. Then test for continuity, between the ground strap on the distributor, and each of the two yellow wires. Any reading less than infinity is not good. I forget the ohm testing readings of my coils, but if they look good, no cracks, etc, then chance's are they are ok. Post back, and let me know how you make out.
I had a last minuet thought, check to see if you have a mercury switch located on the distibutor side of the motor. There is a terminal block, with four wires, I thik they are brown and white. The switch would be located hanging from the terminal block. ITs purpose was to "kill" the motor if the motor bounced, or was tilted up while running. Sort of an automatic shut down in case you hit something in the water. 99% of them were thrown away, since the often shut the motor down, for no apparent reason.
If it has one, THROW IT AWAY, and Ill bet you have spark.

 

[hardtailcfl]

Re: Another NO spark thread...1961 Kiekhaefer 800 FGS

Ok I hate to ask you to do this......I did, here is why. On mine, it would fire up when I turned the key to start. As soon as I let go, it would die out. Turned out to be the ignition switch, and nothing more. On that motor, in the off possition, all the wires are going to the key are not connected. When you turn the key to run, the white wire, black wire and the wire, not going to the start solinoid are all connected together. When you turn the switch to start, then the wire going to the solinoid gets power, and engages the solinoid, thus starting the starter motor. So, I would recomend you take apart the control box, and examine the ignition switch for continuity between the terminals. NOw the reason I didn't mention the third wires colour, is because it could be orange, or salmon. Anyhow, I'll post a link to the wireing harness diagrams, etc, for you.
http://www.maxrules.com/MERCwireindex.html
Use the all models thru 1965
You will have to look at the one for the 700-800-850 FGS that should be yours.
You will also need to look at the one that is for mercElectric Switch's
that one will show you the key diagrams.
There are two diagrams for the 700-800-850 FGS
One is for the actual motor wireing, the second show the harness wireing.
That should be enough to help you track down the why's of the lack of spark
it would not be IMHO the condensers.
OHM out the stator too. Disconect one of the yellow wires,from the rectifier, and measure the resistance between the two yellow wires. Any reading, really below infinity is good, unless its zero, mine was about 3 ohms. Then test for continuity, between the ground strap on the distributor, and each of the two yellow wires. Any reading less than infinity is not good. I forget the ohm testing readings of my coils, but if they look good, no cracks, etc, then chance's are they are ok. Post back, and let me know how you make out.
I had a last minuet thought, check to see if you have a mercury switch located on the distibutor side of the motor. There is a terminal block, with four wires, I thik they are brown and white. The switch would be located hanging from the terminal block. ITs purpose was to "kill" the motor if the motor bounced, or was tilted up while running. Sort of an automatic shut down in case you hit something in the water. 99% of them were thrown away, since the often shut the motor down, for no apparent reason.
If it has one, THROW IT AWAY, and Ill bet you have spark.

Ok....had a short amount of time to mess around.

Took the control box apart. All wires to the ignition switch look good. NO fraying, chewed up wires, etc

I think I found the "kill switch" you are referring to...see pic below. If that's it then I did disconnect it and still no spark.

I will grab the wiring diagrams from the link you posted and should be able to check that out tomorrow.

OHM meter between the 2 yellow wires reads around 4 initially but then ZERO's out almost instantly. I'm guessing this indicates the stator is bad?? But isn't the stator just for the charging system?

The same thing happens with the coils on the OHM meter. I get a reading initially then it ZERO's out....

OHM meter between the ground strap and both yellow wires is consistent around 8.8

Thank you VERY much for the help you've provided so far and please feel free to talk to me like a 1st grader I am BRAND NEW to old Mercs...

 

[Fuzzytbay]

Re: Another NO spark thread...1961 Kiekhaefer 800 FGS

Try this, just for confirmation, disconnect both yellow leads, check for continuity between the yellow wires and ground. Any continuity, means a short to ground on the stator. Where the two yellow lines from the stator are clipped to the lower cowl, gently pry up the holders, and see if you can see any cracked wires.
Yes that is the mercury kill switch, disconnect, and throw away.
Can you post some other pics, one of the front, and other side, plus the rear?
I am not sure, but I think someone swapped out the rectifier. I would think I could see it from the pics you posted, but I can't really.
Have you changed the plug wires? they look new, and I noticed some of the caps are not on the distributor.

 

[hardtailcfl]

Re: Another NO spark thread...1961 Kiekhaefer 800 FGS

I'll have to check for continuity between yellow wires and ground after work tonight.

Yes the boots are off the wires going to the dist cap. With the screw in terminals I've found its much easier to just leave them off until everything is all said and done.

Just to clarify the switch has ONLY 2 wires...brown and white?

Yes new plug wires...the wonderful mice had chewed their way through a few of them so I just replaced all.

Pics....

 

[Fuzzytbay]

Re: Another NO spark thread...1961 Kiekhaefer 800 FGS

Check the wireing diagram too. I am short on time, but I had thought the
wires on the solinoid, were reversed? Don't change them though, just check the wireing diagram and confirm thats the correct hook up. I had thought on mine the wire to the coil, came from the positive side (left one looking at it)front terminal, not the right hand one? The rest of it looks like they are where they are ment to be, except the choke solinoid wire, from the top cowl, which should go to the middle terminal, on the coil side of the motor, (but you disconnected that on to remove the top cowl, right?)

 

[hardtailcfl]

Re: Another NO spark thread...1961 Kiekhaefer 800 FGS

So according the wiring diagram the + to the coils does indeed come from the RIGHT side of the solenoid. With the key on there is 12v to the solenoid and both coils.

NO continuity between the 2 yellow wires. I tested the resistance again between the 2 yellow wires. Again gives an initial reading of around 4ohms then zero's itself out almost instantly.

Same thing with the coils. I get a reading initially that is within spec and then it zero's out.

And yes the choke solenoid wire was disconnected to take the top cowl off.

The coils are fairly inexpensive...around $30/each so I may just get new ones anyway. I will also try to have the local auto parts store bench test the coils to confirm my findings.

Thanks again...Bryan

 

[Fuzzytbay]

Re: Another NO spark thread...1961 Kiekhaefer 800 FGS

Ok, I just got back, like I said I was pressed for time. I just wasn't sure. You might be right about the coils. I am not sure why the meter reads 4 ohms, then drops to zero. If you can get the coils tested, then that would eleminate one possible problem. Here is a link to the service manual for setting the points and timing for that motor, this might help you out too.
http://www.maxrules.com/timingindex.html

On a note, it looks like the front studs broke off the top cowling. You might be
able to use some JB weld, or an epoxy to glue them back on. On mine I don't have the bolts on, and it seems to stay just fine. Your should too, if you only have the back nuts on.

Yes the mercury switch only has the two wires.

Ok one other thought, when you tested the stator, was the wiring harness pluged in? The key switched off? Battery disconected?
I am still trying to figure out why the resistance bleed down?

You might also want to try this. It will eleminate any wiring harness/key issues. Hook up the battery, turn on the ignition switch to run, and test for 12 volts, at the black wire on the left coil, and 12 volts on the red wire on the right hand coil.
You know 12 volts is getting to the yellow wire, since the starter engages.

 

[hardtailcfl]

Re: Another NO spark thread...1961 Kiekhaefer 800 FGS

Ok, I just got back, like I said I was pressed for time. I just wasn't sure. You might be right about the coils. I am not sure why the meter reads 4 ohms, then drops to zero. If you can get the coils tested, then that would eleminate one possible problem. Here is a link to the service manual for setting the points and timing for that motor, this might help you out too.
http://www.maxrules.com/timingindex.html

On a note, it looks like the front studs broke off the top cowling. You might be
able to use some JB weld, or an epoxy to glue them back on. On mine I don't have the bolts on, and it seems to stay just fine. Your should too, if you only have the back nuts on.

Yes the mercury switch only has the two wires.

Ok one other thought, when you tested the stator, was the wiring harness pluged in? The key switched off? Battery disconected?
I am still trying to figure out why the resistance bleed down?

You might also want to try this. It will eleminate any wiring harness/key issues. Hook up the battery, turn on the ignition switch to run, and test for 12 volts, at the black wire on the left coil, and 12 volts on the red wire on the right hand coil.
You know 12 volts is getting to the yellow wire, since the starter engages.

Thanks for the link!! I actually have the manual on CD as well.

I was curious about those front studs. The top cowl is very secure without so I don't think I'll worry about that now

When I tested the stator....wiring harness WAS plugged in. Key was OFF. The battery was connected however.

I actually did test the coils for 12v earlier this evening. Both coils are getting 12v to the + terminals.

The auto parts guy basically laughed at me when I asked if he could bench test to confirm my findings. In typical big box auto store fashion he asked me what kind of vehicle it was from

I actually just found out this evening that a friend's mom's spouse is BIG into old Mercs...he said he would come over and take a look at it as well so I have that going for me too!!

I will be out of town until Saturday evening so I'll report back with any findings at that point.

Thanks again!!

 

[hardtailcfl]

Re: Another NO spark thread...1961 Kiekhaefer 800 FGS

Ordered coils today...should be here Thursday and I'll report back then.

 

[hardtailcfl]

Re: Another NO spark thread...1961 Kiekhaefer 800 FGS

Well the coils arrived ridiculously fast (thank you iboats ) but did not solve the problem...still no spark I'm officially out of ideas. a new stator is $450 and a new set of points are $115/each so I'm not real excited about either of those options.

 

[hardtailcfl]

Re: Another NO spark thread...1961 Kiekhaefer 800 FGS

Well I actually took the control box apart and think I may have found my problem. I had briefly looked at the ignition switch without really taking apart the controls.

Excuse the bad pictures but here is what I found...every wire is exposed and a couple are chewed through. I'm thinking this could be the issue.

I also tested for 12v at the + (15 terminal) and it was jumping all over the place which leads me to believe the problem most certainly lies in the above pictures

I'll have a chance to mess with it tomorrow evening. I'll report back then.

 

[Fuzzytbay]

Re: Another NO spark thread...1961 Kiekhaefer 800 FGS

Here's the wireing link for the key switch, just hot wire it, and see what happens.
http://www.maxrules.com/oldmercs/Wiring/0_1965a/17.pdf

 

[hardtailcfl]

Re: Another NO spark thread...1961 Kiekhaefer 800 FGS

SUCCESS!!! It was definitely the ignition switch wiring that was fried. Hot wired the switch today and it popped off almost instantly. It idled like a champ for almost 15min before I shut it off. Had the muffs on it too and after a few minutes the pee hole started peeing

Couple questions though...while taking the old wiring off the back of the ignition switch 2 of the spade terminals broke off Is there a fix for this (solder?) or should I just spend the $20 on a new one?

Second...can I bypass the "rubber choke" button? Only reason I ask is because I can't find 4 post ignition switches anywhere. According the Mercury parts catalog a 3 post ignition switch is the replacement for this control box???

HUGE THANKS TO FUZZTBAY - YOU WERE DEAD ON WITH YOUR FIRST SUGGESTION I JUST DIDN'T LOOK CAREFULLY ENOUGH

 

[Fuzzytbay]

Re: Another NO spark thread...1961 Kiekhaefer 800 FGS

I just used a switch for the 50 hp model, but you can use the three post switch aswell. You could bypass the switch button, and just by a new push botton to mount else where, but then you lose the "orginal" look.

 

[hardtailcfl]

Re: Another NO spark thread...1961 Kiekhaefer 800 FGS

Ok well I ordered a 3 post ignition switch that Mercury says replaced the old 4 post ones...I pick it up at the marina on Wednesday so we'll see what happens.

I have few other issues to sort out...like the prop spinning at idle?? Pretty sure this should not be happening...

 

[Fuzzytbay]

Re: Another NO spark thread...1961 Kiekhaefer 800 FGS

Prop spins in idle are NORMAL. maybe even a good thing.