Alpha 1 gen 2 / bravo 3 swap

MarkSee

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Messages
1,172
Re: Alpha 1 gen 2 / bravo 3 swap

Having talked over the past few years with a local sales person regarding performance in boats of our size, though mostly Sea Ray 280's with twin engines, she conveyed that though the V8's are preferred, the v6/alpha packages will do the job and get the boat on plane and really it's the top end speed that folks seem disappointed with.

As you mention the boat struggles to get on plane from day 1, I think the guys above that have indicated to get the engine rpm into the right range and propping for better low end would be the way to start......and significantly keep the cost down.

Mark
 

StevNimrod

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
343
Re: Alpha 1 gen 2 / bravo 3 swap

Here is everything I've learned from experience, observation, and the good folks here (some of whom have assisted me in the past on various issues)...

You first need to decide if the issues you're having are issues you can force yourself to live with. Boating is often about trade-offs. At our marina, the guys with twin 4.3s complain about how long it takes to get on plane (or to their destination) but don't complain much about gas; the guys with twin 7.4s complain about gas but don't complain much about performance. The problem you have can be fixed, but like any other problem, the actual question is are you comfortable in investing X dollars getting there. If you don't do that analysis first, you'll end up spending $2 to fix a $1 problem (i.e., you may be able to sell your current boat, and for the same money get one equipped how you'd like...it is a buyer's market).

If you want to keep the current boat and decide not to swap to Bravo III, a good place to start might be with a competent prop shop. You may have one locally, but you may have to find one on our side of the border. A lot of guys on the speed boat forums have a handful of shops in the U.S. that are very highly regarded and very willing to help. To save you a bit of hassle, the one I was just thinking about that a lot of performance guys use is BBLADES out of Princeton, Wisconsin (and no, I'm not affiliated or on their payroll!). At a more basic level what you'll probably find is that what makes aluminum props the "safer" choice (they are relatively less rigid than stainless) also means than an aluminum prop might not be helping you get your heavy boat on plane (since the blades aren't as rigid they'll tend to flatten as you try to plane). That leads you to a stainless prop, and not all of those are created equal. I'm pushing a heavy load with a single 6.2L and ended up with a stainless 15.25 x 18 (it was originally 15.25 x 19 but 1" of pitch was removed), after starting with an aluminum 14.5 x 19. A good prop shop will be able to get you dialed in to whatever blade profile it is that best fits what you're trying to do. And no, all prop shops are not good. In fact, the truly good ones are somewhat hard to find since that business model is built more on referrals than repeat business.

If you keep the boat and decide to swap to Bravo III, just keep in mind that each engine is still putting out ~200 HP. You certainly don't want to improve your traction to find that the power output of your engines is the next bottleneck. If you create expectations based on how much $$$ you're shelling out, and it can be an expensive path to disappointment. You can probably find some decent deals out there; I know that some of the local salvage yards are still processing boats from Hurricane Sandy, and there aren't a lot of folks spending that kind of coin on boat fixes (it seems to me that a lot more people are simply getting out of boating when something major breaks). If you do what Rick did and get engine and drive cutout packages, you can save the aggravation of waiting a week for a bracket, or wiring harness, or trinket or whatever to come in that you didn't realize you needed until two weeks before launch.

As for the economics of bothering to do it, I'll say this: Except in rare cases, it almost universally isn't a sound decision. And by rare cases I mean those where you find a boat with extensive structural damage, with twin Bravo IIIs, and serviceable 7.4s (that you can quickly sell), that an insurance company or salvage yard or whoever simply doesn't want to bother warehousing anymore so they're willing to part with it for a song. If you can find one of those deals (and they're out there if you know where to look, are persistent, and know how to negotiate) the whole thing might approach making sense on paper. Then again, very few things in boating make sense on paper. The other side of that coin is this: Not only should you look at the cash outlay today, but also years from now to get a better picture of how this thing fits into your bigger picture. For instance, if you invest $10K in the boat today, but could earn 4% on your investments over the next five years, that means you would have $12K in five years had you invested the money. This is a fundamental concept to think about, and is why people are generally advised to think long and hard about investing in depreciating assets (especially ones that are only used half of the year) - that investment in the asset gets more expensive each year relative to the returns from saving.

The last thing I've learned that I'll share is this: Absolutely do assign some value to your time (come up with an hourly "wage", which you can easily do by asking yourself how much you'd be willing to pay someone per hour to do this for you), multiply that by the number of hours you figure this to take, and include this figure when you do the math. Unless you literally have nothing else you'd rather be doing, undertaking this project will, at one point or another, come at the expense of something else in your life. For all of us, time is our most valuable resource and it is certainly worth something. I know it seems strange to work out some arbitrary figure to "pay" yourself, when you know you aren't actually going to cut yourself a check, but it isn't; it's exactly how you decide if you want to involve yourself in a project, or farm it out because it's not worth the hassle.

To give a bit of perspective...

Five years ago I was about where you are now - trying to figure out how to make a relatively large and somewhat underpowered boat perform how I wanted it to (or thought it should). There were a lot of late nights spent researching stuff online, asking questions on this forum and others, and fretting over things I now can't even remember. There was also a lot of money spent that I hadn't anticipated; once you start taking stuff apart, you tend to find that other things aren't right (or merit closer inspection) and "while I'm in it this deep" those things also get fixed. There was a bit of beer consumed, several funny moments shared with close friends who are good enough people to take time out of their lives to lend a hand (some of the stuff we laugh about to this day). Those aspects of my project, especially the memories, are almost unspeakably good.

But there was bad stuff, and plenty of it. At various points it seemed like the more stuff I took apart, the more problems I found. I take pride in my work, so I'm not one to put something back together when I know it isn't right, so this often meant that my personality was working against both my calendar and my checkbook. The internet is good for information, and at times it can be too good - I would often have a pointed question, and end up with tons of information and what would initially look like no definitive answer (we all have different ways of looking at things and doing things, and that tends to come out in a forum type environment). Depending on your personality, that can drive you nuts (which for me was a generally short trip). By the time I finished, I was about 100% over what I expected, and ended up paying about $700/MPH on the top end. Had I known that at the outset, I probably would have instead saved the $$$ for the next boat. And, at the end of the day, I still have a relatively big boat being pushed by a single small block; no matter how much I spent, I was always working against some constraint: The HP limits of a Gen 2 Alpha drive; the weight of the boat; the fact that a single screw small block is only going to be able to do so much.

Do I regret it? Not at all! But I can definitely say that if I had known then what I know now, I'd have lived with what I had and kept that in mind for the next boat.
 

racer17

Cadet
Joined
Jan 28, 2014
Messages
12
Re: Alpha 1 gen 2 / bravo 3 swap

Here is everything I've learned from experience, observation, and the good folks here (some of whom have assisted me in the past on various issues)...

You first need to decide if the issues you're having are issues you can force yourself to live with. Boating is often about trade-offs. At our marina, the guys with twin 4.3s complain about how long it takes to get on plane (or to their destination) but don't complain much about gas; the guys with twin 7.4s complain about gas but don't complain much about performance. The problem you have can be fixed, but like any other problem, the actual question is are you comfortable in investing X dollars getting there. If you don't do that analysis first, you'll end up spending $2 to fix a $1 problem (i.e., you may be able to sell your current boat, and for the same money get one equipped how you'd like...it is a buyer's market).

If you want to keep the current boat and decide not to swap to Bravo III, a good place to start might be with a competent prop shop. You may have one locally, but you may have to find one on our side of the border. A lot of guys on the speed boat forums have a handful of shops in the U.S. that are very highly regarded and very willing to help. To save you a bit of hassle, the one I was just thinking about that a lot of performance guys use is BBLADES out of Princeton, Wisconsin (and no, I'm not affiliated or on their payroll!). At a more basic level what you'll probably find is that what makes aluminum props the "safer" choice (they are relatively less rigid than stainless) also means than an aluminum prop might not be helping you get your heavy boat on plane (since the blades aren't as rigid they'll tend to flatten as you try to plane). That leads you to a stainless prop, and not all of those are created equal. I'm pushing a heavy load with a single 6.2L and ended up with a stainless 15.25 x 18 (it was originally 15.25 x 19 but 1" of pitch was removed), after starting with an aluminum 14.5 x 19. A good prop shop will be able to get you dialed in to whatever blade profile it is that best fits what you're trying to do. And no, all prop shops are not good. In fact, the truly good ones are somewhat hard to find since that business model is built more on referrals than repeat business.

If you keep the boat and decide to swap to Bravo III, just keep in mind that each engine is still putting out ~200 HP. You certainly don't want to improve your traction to find that the power output of your engines is the next bottleneck. If you create expectations based on how much $$$ you're shelling out, and it can be an expensive path to disappointment. You can probably find some decent deals out there; I know that some of the local salvage yards are still processing boats from Hurricane Sandy, and there aren't a lot of folks spending that kind of coin on boat fixes (it seems to me that a lot more people are simply getting out of boating when something major breaks). If you do what Rick did and get engine and drive cutout packages, you can save the aggravation of waiting a week for a bracket, or wiring harness, or trinket or whatever to come in that you didn't realize you needed until two weeks before launch.

As for the economics of bothering to do it, I'll say this: Except in rare cases, it almost universally isn't a sound decision. And by rare cases I mean those where you find a boat with extensive structural damage, with twin Bravo IIIs, and serviceable 7.4s (that you can quickly sell), that an insurance company or salvage yard or whoever simply doesn't want to bother warehousing anymore so they're willing to part with it for a song. If you can find one of those deals (and they're out there if you know where to look, are persistent, and know how to negotiate) the whole thing might approach making sense on paper. Then again, very few things in boating make sense on paper. The other side of that coin is this: Not only should you look at the cash outlay today, but also years from now to get a better picture of how this thing fits into your bigger picture. For instance, if you invest $10K in the boat today, but could earn 4% on your investments over the next five years, that means you would have $12K in five years had you invested the money. This is a fundamental concept to think about, and is why people are generally advised to think long and hard about investing in depreciating assets (especially ones that are only used half of the year) - that investment in the asset gets more expensive each year relative to the returns from saving.

The last thing I've learned that I'll share is this: Absolutely do assign some value to your time (come up with an hourly "wage", which you can easily do by asking yourself how much you'd be willing to pay someone per hour to do this for you), multiply that by the number of hours you figure this to take, and include this figure when you do the math. Unless you literally have nothing else you'd rather be doing, undertaking this project will, at one point or another, come at the expense of something else in your life. For all of us, time is our most valuable resource and it is certainly worth something. I know it seems strange to work out some arbitrary figure to "pay" yourself, when you know you aren't actually going to cut yourself a check, but it isn't; it's exactly how you decide if you want to involve yourself in a project, or farm it out because it's not worth the hassle.

To give a bit of perspective...

Five years ago I was about where you are now - trying to figure out how to make a relatively large and somewhat underpowered boat perform how I wanted it to (or thought it should). There were a lot of late nights spent researching stuff online, asking questions on this forum and others, and fretting over things I now can't even remember. There was also a lot of money spent that I hadn't anticipated; once you start taking stuff apart, you tend to find that other things aren't right (or merit closer inspection) and "while I'm in it this deep" those things also get fixed. There was a bit of beer consumed, several funny moments shared with close friends who are good enough people to take time out of their lives to lend a hand (some of the stuff we laugh about to this day). Those aspects of my project, especially the memories, are almost unspeakably good.

But there was bad stuff, and plenty of it. At various points it seemed like the more stuff I took apart, the more problems I found. I take pride in my work, so I'm not one to put something back together when I know it isn't right, so this often meant that my personality was working against both my calendar and my checkbook. The internet is good for information, and at times it can be too good - I would often have a pointed question, and end up with tons of information and what would initially look like no definitive answer (we all have different ways of looking at things and doing things, and that tends to come out in a forum type environment). Depending on your personality, that can drive you nuts (which for me was a generally short trip). By the time I finished, I was about 100% over what I expected, and ended up paying about $700/MPH on the top end. Had I known that at the outset, I probably would have instead saved the $$$ for the next boat. And, at the end of the day, I still have a relatively big boat being pushed by a single small block; no matter how much I spent, I was always working against some constraint: The HP limits of a Gen 2 Alpha drive; the weight of the boat; the fact that a single screw small block is only going to be able to do so much.

Do I regret it? Not at all! But I can definitely say that if I had known then what I know now, I'd have lived with what I had and kept that in mind for the next boat.

@ StevNimrod... you are me new favorite person!!

I sooooo needed to hear that. You just made so much sense to me it's kinda creepy, lol. You and I think identical when it comes to projects. I routinely get lost in the " I'm this deep I may as well do that while I'm here" and then my time line and budget are out the window. I could see you and I getting along famously if we lived in the same town :tea:

I have suffered so much torment trying to enjoy my boat focusing on the things it wont do I'm my own worst enemy. The fact is, my Regal 2760 Commodore is the absolute perfect layout for my needs and we love the 9' 11" beam in a 28' class boat!! If the prick would plane better and I had an on board genset it would be perfect.

Your, and others advice to shop for a boat that pleases me is great advice. I do know regal makes my hull with both Bravo 3's and Onan gen... pure heaven in my opinion. I will now ask the generous and intelligent people on this forum to either help me with solving my issue via aftermarket prop selection, or direct me to the proper forum to ask these questions?

Once again, thanks to each and everyone that commented on my thread. This is the first time I have reached out to a forum for help and am pleased with the great answers and vast experience.

On that note.... I now have an extra $10,000 I was earmarking for my boat... I'm going to buy a new snowmobile!! Yeeeeeeeeee Haawwwww!! :canada::rockon:
 

achris

More fish than mountain goat
Joined
May 19, 2004
Messages
27,468
Re: Alpha 1 gen 2 / bravo 3 swap

... I will now ask the generous and intelligent people on this forum to either help me with solving my issue via aftermarket prop selection, or direct me to the proper forum to ask these questions? ...

Try the Prop Forums here on iboats....

Prop Questions and Topics
 

FreeBeeTony

Captain
Joined
May 15, 2002
Messages
3,997
Re: Alpha 1 gen 2 / bravo 3 swap

I think it'd be easier to change out the 4.3's for 5.7's and keep the Alpha's.
 

agallant80

Commander
Joined
Oct 25, 2010
Messages
2,328
Re: Alpha 1 gen 2 / bravo 3 swap

I think it'd be easier to change out the 4.3's for 5.7's and keep the Alpha's.

The issue with that is adding an additional 400Lbs to the rear of the boat. It won't behave the same. You could go to 4.3MPI for the same weight and gain an extra 30HP per motor.
 

HT32BSX115

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 8, 2005
Messages
10,083
Re: Alpha 1 gen 2 / bravo 3 swap


Boattest has a typo. NO 5.0L engine weighs 952 (without the drive)

Sterndrives.com has a great Mercruiser chart : Mercruiser Sterndrive Engine specifications

The difference is approx 100lbs between a V-6/Alpha and a V-8 Alpha.


I think it'd be easier to change out the 4.3's for 5.7's and keep the Alpha's.

That would be the MOST bang for the BUCK IF you could find a REALLY good deal on 2 5.0L or 5.7L engines. Assuming your drive ratio was "right" (which it might be with the right prop selection...........you would have to experiment)
 
Last edited:

FreeBeeTony

Captain
Joined
May 15, 2002
Messages
3,997
Re: Alpha 1 gen 2 / bravo 3 swap

That would be the MOST bang for the BUCK IF you could find a REALLY good deal on 2 5.0L or 5.7L engines. Assuming your drive ratio was "right" (which it might be with the right prop selection...........you would have to experiment)

And you could probably use some of your existing exterior parts on reman'd longblocks: alt, P/S, circ pumps, bellhousing, etc.....just an opinion......might wanna put some numbers on paper.
 

thumpar

Admiral
Joined
Jun 21, 2007
Messages
6,138
Re: Alpha 1 gen 2 / bravo 3 swap

With the engine swap you could sell off the 4.3l engines and probably get most of you money back. I think the drive ratio would work because of the size of the boat. They did put 1.62 behind the 5.0l engines on some boats. You would probably have to prop up a tad but that wouldn't be as much as B3 prop sets if you stick with the Alphas.
 

racer17

Cadet
Joined
Jan 28, 2014
Messages
12
Re: Alpha 1 gen 2 / bravo 3 swap

Boattest has a typo. NO 5.0L engine weighs 952 (without the drive)

Sterndrives.com has a great Mercruiser chart : Mercruiser Sterndrive Engine specifications

The difference is approx 100lbs between a V-6/Alpha and a V-8 Alpha.




That would be the MOST bang for the BUCK IF you could find a REALLY good deal on 2 5.0L or 5.7L engines. Assuming your drive ratio was "right" (which it might be with the right prop selection...........you would have to experiment)

Refer to post #17 where I explained my conversation with the propulsion engineer regarding 5.7 swap @ Regal Boats. I can get new 5.7 long blocks from Michigan mortz landed to my door for $2300.00 CDN if this were a option.
 

achris

More fish than mountain goat
Joined
May 19, 2004
Messages
27,468
Re: Alpha 1 gen 2 / bravo 3 swap

Refer to post #17 where I explained my conversation with the propulsion engineer regarding 5.7 swap @ Regal Boats. I can get new 5.7 long blocks from Michigan mortz landed to my door for $2300.00 CDN if this were a option.

1. Porpoising can be sorted out with trim tabs (not the useless bits of plastic rubbish on the drive, but proper metal tabs secured to the transom). Or add an extra fuel or water tank up front.
2. Low water line level is solved with exhaust elbow extension kits. They come in 1.5", 3", 6" and 9"... Take your choice. (They are designed for exactly this situation)

And if the boat is that heavy, then the 1.62:1 drives will be PERFECT with 5.7 engines....

Personally, if you have such an issue with the performance, then the 5.7 conversion is a no-brainer. I seriously doubt a B3 conversion is the be-all to the problem. I see the current problem as "too much boat, not enough engine".

Chris.....
 
Last edited:

Scott Danforth

Grumpy Vintage Moderator still playing with boats
Staff member
Joined
Jul 23, 2011
Messages
52,922
Re: Alpha 1 gen 2 / bravo 3 swap

I have a comment regarding weight. if your current 4.3's are heat exchanged cooled I have a solution that wont break the bank

a 5.7 with aluminum heads, intake and manifolds actually weighs less than the 4.3 with cast iron intake, heads and manifolds.

If I was in your shoes, I would pull the 4.3's sell them, and install HX cooled 5.7's with aluminum heads and manifolds and go boating.

Since you seem handy with tools and have already had your motors out once that is the least painful in both time, frustration, and BOAT units.
 

Scott Danforth

Grumpy Vintage Moderator still playing with boats
Staff member
Joined
Jul 23, 2011
Messages
52,922
Re: Alpha 1 gen 2 / bravo 3 swap

Refer to post #17 where I explained my conversation with the propulsion engineer regarding 5.7 swap @ Regal Boats. I can get new 5.7 long blocks from Michigan mortz landed to my door for $2300.00 CDN if this were a option.

an aluminum head and intake on a 5.7 liter weighs in less than a cast iron headed 4.3 liter. I would also run aluminum exhaust and put a HX on the motors.
 

agallant80

Commander
Joined
Oct 25, 2010
Messages
2,328
Re: Alpha 1 gen 2 / bravo 3 swap

I agree with Scott. After viewing the options the easiest and cheapest would be to talk to a qualified prop shop, that will set you back about $1000 for some nice SS props, its a crap shot, you won't know until you have them on the boat if they solve the issue.

Next option would be to sell the boat take your 10K and buy something with more power

Other option would be to really investigate swapping the motors out. If you can do it without adding much weight and like the boat that may be the way to go.

I think this is more of a HP issue rather than an outdrive issue.

The people that do have B3 with the same boat, are they still complaining?
 

thumpar

Admiral
Joined
Jun 21, 2007
Messages
6,138
Re: Alpha 1 gen 2 / bravo 3 swap

The weight increase going to B3 drives is probably more than switching the motors to 5.7l.
 

Bondo

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Messages
71,487
Re: Alpha 1 gen 2 / bravo 3 swap

Refer to post #17 where I explained my conversation with the propulsion engineer regarding 5.7 swap @ Regal Boats. I can get new 5.7 long blocks from Michigan mortz landed to my door for $2300.00 CDN if this were a option.

Ayuh,.... A Long Block motor is Alota money short of a plug, 'n play Bobtail motor,....
 
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