Alarm sound when turning the key - starter does not work.

[fxSol]

Greetings to all,
Have begun some troubleshooting and trying to figure out where things have gone bad. Will go through https://forums.iboats.com/threads/how-to-troubleshooting-your-engines-starting-system.166663/ tomorrow when I am on-site but have some questions why the alarm sounds on turning the key/ignition?

I just want to see if the engine cranks from the starter but the starter does not do anything. Have removed it and tested if it works and it does by grounding it to the chassi of starter, positive from battery and positive to the yellow/red cable connector. The starter jumps out and spins.

But when I plug it back in boat with its wire it does not do nothing - no click. Only sound I get is the high pitch alarming sound that messes up eardrums and a "humming" low sound. Low humming sound could be the fuel or oilpump?
All gauges lite up.

Does this engine has some error-check prior to trying to crank it?
Like if there is no oil-pressure or gas it will never engage the starter?

Engine is not connected to fuel source and oil level is low. Could this be what causes the alarm?

I will do the check from the above link on troubleshooting and start with ignition switch and then move my way to the relay and so on - still learning =)
Have found the diagrams for this motor but still a rookie when it comes to electricity and how to check circuits if work or not.

So my question is -
What is causing the alarm and could it be reason why it wont turn the starter motor?


Boat:
Engine - Penta 4.3GL
Sterndrive 280DP

 

[Donald0039]

Typically an alarm sounds when starting the engine as there is no oil pressure.

Almost certainly the boat has a neutral safety switch that prevents from starting the engine unless the shift is in neutral. If you already have the shift in neutral try turning the key to start and moving the shift a tad forward and/or a tad back. Maybe the neutral safety switch is not adjusted properly.

You need a DVM (digital volt meter). In the $25 range. Not one under $10.

You will need a helper to turn the key to start. And measure for 12V at the starter solenoid. Ignition switches do break.

 

[fxSol]

Typically an alarm sounds when starting the engine as there is no oil pressure.

Almost certainly the boat has a neutral safety switch that prevents from starting the engine unless the shift is in neutral. If you already have the shift in neutral try turning the key to start and moving the shift a tad forward and/or a tad back. Maybe the neutral safety switch is not adjusted properly.

You need a DVM (digital volt meter). In the $25 range. Not one under $10.

You will need a helper to turn the key to start. And measure for 12V at the starter solenoid. Ignition switches do break.

Did not know about the shift forward and tad back trick. Will try that thing first tomorrow =) It could be it because the shift-stick is "jiggly" I have a decent DVM and it will check every wire tomorrow there is.

So in an essence, even though oil-pressure is low or none it should be able to crank and engage start motor?

Once again,
A big thank you!

Posting diagram here for others and as reference. If not allowed to post it, I will remove it.

 

[Donald0039]

It looks like the yellow wires coming out of the shift control is the neutral safety switch. And the yellow going into the starter solenoid. If moving the shift control a tad forward and a tad back does not help then start at the yellow wire going to the ignition switch and move along to the starter solenoid.

 

[fxSol]

Forgot to attach the legend...


Just came back home from the troubleshooting. Still status quo with the starter. However found something else that could be connected to the problems?
First I disconnected the whole panel to get access to the ignition switch. By the looks of everything I will have to redo all wiring in the future, problem is that I am still struggling with logic of electronics - but I am stubborn and love learning new things.
Measured voltage from pin S and got a good reading of 12.7 volts when ignition ON.. I could not find "a neutral safety switch" anywhere near the throttle/gear stick =( Its an older boat and things have been remade on it. Maybe its located somewhere else but I could not find ANY electric wire going from the stick, except for a thick brown cable and an orange - guess its all controlled by wires.

Second started to measured the starter relay.
30 gave 12,7 volts, all others gave 0. 30 is live I guess by the battery...
However I think 85 is the one going from the ignition switch? Turned the ignition switch thinking I would see some good voltage on 85, but it jumped just to 0.8v which I found odd and strange. My guess is that if all was good the 85 will engage and switch to 87 which goes to the starter motor to fire it up - reasonable logic?

So I then followed the diagram to the fuel pump. Thinking I would see a reading on the ground and yellow/orange by turning the ignition on. 0 volts!
Somethings is not right here, so I checked fuel relay - and it was a MESS. Melted plastic and almost all connectors where like fused together.
Tried to find the fuse of the pump but it was NO-where to be found. Does anyone know where its located? Should be a 7.5 fuse.

So do you think my problems can be because of the fuel pump relay mayhem?

 

[fxSol]

Fuel pump relay looks like this

 

[fxSol]

Yeah i forgot to mention that I tried to unplug the big cable connector on the backside of motor to measure voltage on cable 7 to see if I could get a reading when turning the igniton switch but I was unsuccessful plugging it out. Maybe it can not be done? =)

 

[Donald0039]

If your boat has a fuel pump it almost certainly has (or had when manufactured) a neutral safety switch. It would have to be really really old boat you with a mechanical fuel pump before the government required them.

Take a short piece of wire and go from the red battery cable going to the starter solenoid to the yellow wire on starter solenoid and see if that turns over the starter. The yellow should be the wire from the ignition switch.

The fuel pump relay typically gives the fuel pump 10 seconds of +12V when first given power. Then it will only continue if the engine is running usually by oil pressure sensor. If the engine stalls you do not want the fuel pump to keep running

Is the schematic you listed for your exact engine or a similar engine.

It's possible the prior owner disconnected or just shorted the wires for the neutral safety switch. I would suggest you end up with a newtral safety switch even if you have buy a new one. As the name implies "safety".

I suggest you buy Ancor wire and connectors. Boat wire needs to be tinmed. Not plain copper wire. Best if you can use wire of proper color when rewiring. When I was doing some boat rewiring I ordered 10' or 20' of every color that West Marine sold in a few gauges. There is wiring color list by some standard body like American Yacht Electrical Standards also. Hopefully the boat manufacturer followed those standards.

Before you go too far you need to figure out why all the melted wiring. Assume prior owner was a hack. May have bypassed fuses or used wrong size replacement fuses.

 

[alldodge]

I would not pay much attention to the alarm right now, stay with working on the no crank. You could disconnect the oil pressure switch right now until the other issue is found

With the melted wires I would guess there might be a blown fuse, or the fuse was bypassed or wrong size installed. If correct fuse was installed the melted wires would not have happened

Being unable to remove the engine connector may also mean there are melted or bad corrosion on the pins. The connector should come apart after the hose clamp is removed

Measured voltage from pin S and got a good reading of 12.7 volts when ignition ON..

The S terminal on the key switch should only be powered when key is turned to START, not with it just ON

At the start assist relay check for power on the small Yel/Red when key is turned to Start. If it's there check the Black wire has a good ground. If both are good remove relay and jumper the Red and larger Yel/Red wire contacts, the starter should engage

If 12V is not on the small Yel/Red then trace the Yel/Red from key switch. It should go to the shifter for stern drives, but if its a inboard it will be at the transmission

 

[fxSol]

Thank you for replies! I will go back again tomorrow morning and start all over. If I manage to remove the engine connector from the backside to the harness for motor I can then measure pin/connector 7 for voltage when ignition start. If bad then maybe there is a safety switch after all =) But will check again for it tomorrow. Thing was that I looked for yellowRed wires and I could find none...but they do not need to be in that color. Will check tomorrow =)

Donald0039​

If your boat has a fuel pump it almost certainly has (or had when manufactured) a neutral safety switch. It would have to be really really old boat you with a mechanical fuel pump before the government required them.

The boat is 20-30 years old if not more. Age is not the problem but my slim knowledge. This is my first boat and I bought it just to learn from it and hopefully one day I can take her to the sea and have some quality time. Its a Fjord 21 DC.

Donald0039​

Take a short piece of wire and go from the red battery cable going to the starter solenoid to the yellow wire on starter solenoid and see if that turns over the starter. The yellow should be the wire from the ignition switch.

Never thought of doing that way. Will do it the first thing in the morning. But if it does not work but did work when I removed the starter and tried it solo with battery - what could be wrong then? Ground?

The fuel pump relay typically gives the fuel pump 10 seconds of +12V when first given power. Then it will only continue if the engine is running usually by oil pressure sensor. If the engine stalls you do not want the fuel pump to keep running

Thanks! Maybe even generator is doing something after motor cranks up and runs feed the pump relay? (or did when all was working prior the boat came to me =) )
And then there are something called diodes. Did not know what it was but I know now. Maybe I will need to check those also in future. Only problem is that the wiring and connectors for the fuel pump is a mess and I need to re-do them. Lucky there is a second unused connector next to the burned one and I need to re solder the wires and plug then back in the healthy non burned one.

Is the schematic you listed for your exact engine or a similar engine.

It's the same

I suggest you buy Ancor wire and connectors. Boat wire needs to be tinmed. Not plain copper wire.

Think all are pure copper right now. May I ask why they need to be tinned?
Is it because of the oxidation of copper? Right now I have mega thick cables going from the battery. Think its 70mm2 or 2/0 awg cables but I will have to redo them. Will check Ancor out - thanks.

Before you go too far you need to figure out why all the melted wiring. Assume prior owner was a hack. May have bypassed fuses or used wrong size replacement fuses.

I know for a fact that the previous owner was something of a hack =) Have seen some sloppy work done to the boat.

 

[fxSol]

I would not pay much attention to the alarm right now, stay with working on the no crank. You could disconnect the oil pressure switch right now until the other issue is found

Agreed! Thought just that maybe there was some kind of "limp" mode when alarm sounded disabling things to not cause "more" harm. Now I know this is not true.

With the melted wires I would guess there might be a blown fuse, or the fuse was bypassed or wrong size installed. If correct fuse was installed the melted wires would not have happened

Found only 2 fuses above the starter relay next to each other, but those where 40 and 20. So my guess is that 20 was used instead of 7.5.

Being unable to remove the engine connector may also mean there are melted or bad corrosion on the pins. The connector should come apart after the hose clamp is removed..

You just made me more anxious =) Will try again tomorrow but it did not have any clamp. I think you should be able to just to pull it out without any twisting or anything else? Maybe I need to go to gym more often. =)
Thing is that this part of the boat and cables looks really "fresh" as I suspect that the boat had an engine swap to the 4.3GL and with new engine connector and harness. But will try tomorrow again.

The S terminal on the key switch should only be powered when key is turned to START, not with it just ON

Sorry my bad! Little hard as a foreigner to keep up with correct terminology =) With START it showed good readings. When ON it showed 0.

At the start assist relay check for power on the small Yel/Red when key is turned to Start. If it's there check the Black wire has a good ground. If both are good remove relay and jumper the Red and larger Yel/Red wire contacts, the starter should engage

It was what I did. There is one thin yellowRed and a thicker. The thicker goes to starter and by looking at diagram I suspected the thin one comes from ignition and when in START it only gave me 0.8 volts...so maybe there is a safety switch somewhere in throttle and shifter. Will check 2morrow again.
How do I check if ground is good?
By checking with a good known positive and it should give me correct volt reading on voltmeter apparatus?

If 12V is not on the small Yel/Red then trace the Yel/Red from key switch. It should go to the shifter for stern drives, but if its a inboard it will be at the transmission

To follow it I tried but failed but now you got my attention - transmission?
Yes its an inboard Penta 4.3GL. So with transmission you mean the stern drive? I have a 280DP relic.

Thanks for taking your time to reply and it goes to Donald also =) I have NO one who I can ask for assistant and help so this place is worth gold, and so are you!

 

[alldodge]

With a 280DP that's a stern drive. The prop is attached at the stern hence the term stern drive.

Inboards have a straight shaft coming out of the boat like a ski boat or large cruiser. Prop is under the boat instead on coming out the stern

To check for a good ground connect meter and set on ohms scale. One lead to the negative battery terminal and other on the black wire, should read real close to 0 ohms

Continue to trace the small Yel/Red you will find the problem.
To test, you could jump 12V to the relay terminal where small wire attaches and the starter should engage

 

[bruceb58]

What year is this engine? Does it even have an electric fuel pump?

 

[Dillusion808]

Those wires under the fuel pump relay don't look melted. My 4.3L has all that black crap under it as well. Even my new (to me) wiring harness had it.

Just grab a screw driver and touch the big red terminal on the starter and the yellow wire on the back side.

 

[alldodge]

Those wires under the fuel pump relay don't look melted. My 4.3L has all that black crap under it as well. Even my new (to me) wiring harness had it.

Really?
Note the wire insulation jacket is deformed

 

[Dillusion808]

Really?
Note the wire insulation jacket is deformed

Yes it looks like it was pinched a little. Its a **** show where its gotta mount. Just changed my whole harness on my 4.3L recently.

Not saying it didn't happen but its not that black stuff for sure.

Still reading what he did. So no 2 cents on that yet.


******
You have voltage on 30 which is good from the battery.

You don't have voltage on 85 which goes to ignition switch. Try test Pin 7 on the harness connector for voltage with the switch on.

what type of controls do you have? I have Morse controls and no safety switch.

I'm going to assume the neutral safety switch is bad or not actually in neutral. Or something is wrong with the ignition wire either broken or the pins at the connector are not connecting.

 

[QBhoy]

Hi, given the miss match between engine and outdrive in a combo that wouldn't ever have been mated to one another from new, we are talking about presumably, something that you've had to start from scratch with. Although a good call around the neutral safety switch and that circuit, all I would suggest is that even with this at play, it cannot be the reason for the alarm. You also likely wouldn't get a fuel pump noise either...although I might have presumed that this GL might be of the type that would only have a fuel pump run once oil pressure and cranking is detected ?
I think the presence of a suitable oil level should definitely be introduced just to rule things out there at least.
I would certainly be firstly checking the ignition sensor wire and its proven connection to the adjoining ignition items on top of the engine. Very delicate and easy to become dislodged during intrusive engine work. Often this being dodgy or shorting on anything can result in a blown fuse too.

 

[fxSol]

Greetings to all! Me again and thought I would give some updates.
First of all I bought a new battery-cable since the old one had a crack on the outside of insulation and it looked corroded and just bad. New cable installed and crimped properly, and everything in copper/tin.
Did not solve my problem but this thing had to be done anyways.

So I tried to jump-wire from the starter relay harness, red cable directly to (thicker) yellow/orange cable going to the starter - no problem! Starter runs!

There is a thinner cable also yellow/orange that goes to the relay and here I get strange readings with multimeter. My guess is that its the cable going from the ignition key "S" ? Shouln't the reading be 12V and above when key is turned to start on the thinner yellow/orange cable?
It does not...goes up to 6V and jumps up and down.

Could it be due to the melted harness at the fuel-pump? I will dismantle the harness for fuelpump and cables so there is no short appearing and try again.
Because if we look at the diagram that yellow/orange cable is going to the fuel-pump via a a diod, and then cable color is changed to orange.

Managed also to unplug the cable harness going to the engine on the backside, visually looks good with no corrosion.

To be continued....

 

[Dillusion808]

I think you are getting side tracked by the fuel pump. One thing at a time.

I'd work on getting it to crank first. Starter works when you jump it so obviously 12V is not getting to the Y/R on the starter. Go back to the 87 on the starter relay and check for 12V when cranking.

 

[alldodge]

There is a thinner cable also yellow/orange that goes to the relay and here I get strange readings with multimeter. My guess is that its the cable going from the ignition key "S" ? Shouln't the reading be 12V

Yes, it should read 12V

The S terminal goes from key thru neutral safety switch in the shifter then to relay