Air-cooled vs. Water-cooled

[walleyehed]

continued from general outboards-TC-W3 in aircooled engines... JB, your point is well taken, and as I understand the "double standard" of now all of a sudden, we must use the "manufacturer's" oil, apparently I DO KNOW nothing about the subject, and someone else always has to chime in and throw sarcasim on the fire.<br />As I said before, the "ENGINE" manufacturer for the saws, trimmers, what ever, are not built by stihl, poulan, or who-ever has their name on the piece of equipment.<br /> I'm not going against the grain here, I'm supplying the info given to me by the people that BUILD the engine-not the saw. I've worked on these for years as a factory trained mechanic-not a shadetree mechanic...we hit 6-8 update siminars a year as is required to keep certified statis, and if the Know-it alls want to have a little fun, and poke their nose out, when I see a mistake, I will slap that nose.<br />I really believe there are few people that truely understand, what oils do what, for what.<br />The international Tourney of champions model aircraft unlimited aerobatic competition takes place in Las Vegas every year and ALL of these aircraft of 40-55% scale, weighing 30-80lbs., are powered by mostly "3W" manufacture engines. These are 75cc-150cc engines, ignition type, that run on pre-mix. The most popular oil of choice, by far, is standard Quicksilver OUTBOARD oil. I must also add these engines are available to anyone for around 1000.00, to 3500.00.<br />There are no "POULAN" chainsaw oil containers at this event.<br /> If the only way to go, is using the manufacturer's oil, why would any of you ever argue about using anything but the manufacturer's oil in your outboard....because, in essence, you are saying you know more than the people that built it know.....

 

[JB]

Re: Air-cooled vs. Water-cooled

I see a big difference in "recommendations" and warnings to "never", Kenny.<br /><br />I expect most vendors to recommend their brand of oil.<br /><br />For many years I raced small 2 stroke engines. . .4 to 8 ci, highly modified and turning around 15,000rpm. I mainly used methanol, ether and castor oil where nitro-Xs were banned, but where no limits on fuel were posted I used Fox Hi-Nitro glow plug fuel diluted with methanol. There were no manufacturer's recommendations for that territory (I was probably closer to being the manufacturer than the people who cast the parts), so I learned a lot from experience. One thing I learned was that I didn't need to experiment if I had the advice of someone who already had.<br /><br />For small, high temp, high revving air cooled 2 strokes, if the vendor says, in print, "Never use. . . ", I have to take contradictions as coming from a KIA.<br /><br />No disrespect for your experience and training, Kenny, but there is too much hard evidence that TCW specs don't match air cooled engine needs.

 

[LubeDude]

Re: Air-cooled vs. Water-cooled

Outboard engines are characterized by their constant speed, high output operation. They are usually set at a desired high speed and continue at that speed until the destination is reached and then throttled down. Also, they are constantly cooled with fresh, cool, non-recirculated water. Chain saws, on the other hand, are a high action operation. They are constantly started and stopped, used for short periods and frequent overloads are its hard place in life. Additionally they have smaller displacements than outboards and are air-cooled. By understanding how the operation of an engine can affect the oil used and how an oil can affect the engine, we can better appreciate the difference between a water cooled two-cycle oil and one formulated for an air-cooled two-cycle engine.<br /><br />Water-cooled two-cycle engine oils require higher levels of a heavy oil to prevent piston and cylinder wall scuffing. Because of their high average piston temperature, lighter oils evaporate too quickly from the piston cylinder contact area. The heavy base oil, which vaporizes at very high temperatures, resists evaporation and remains in place to provide lubrication to the piston and cylinder. Air-cooled oil formulations must have much lower levels of the heavy base oil than water-cooled engine oils. These oils require only a small amount of heavy oil to pro vide protection against piston scuffing and seizure at peak temperatures. Heavy levels of heavy base oils in an oil formulated for air-cooled engines can cause engines deposits. <br /><br />These deposits form as a result of incomplete burning of the heavy oil. The deposits can cause piston ring sticking and can eventually plug or disrupt the flow of the exhaust system, resulting in power loss and possible engine damage. Detergent additives should not be used in water-cooled two-cycle oil formulations. When burned with the fuel, detergents can produce an ash deposit in the cylinders. This ash deposit can possibly foul spark plugs, form exhaust port deposits which cause loss of power, and possibly create cylinder hot spots that can cause destructive pre-ignition.<br /><br />Now with that said, Use a TC-W 3 or one specified for that use in your outboard!!<br /><br />Use an oil specified for air cooled engines in your air cooled engine!<br /><br />Using an air cooled engine oil in your outboard will just gum things up, but using an outbourd oil in your aircooled engine can cause engine failure! <br /><br />LubeDude

 

[walleyehed]

Re: Air-cooled vs. Water-cooled

OK.....well, I can't do anything other than respect your thoughts, and maybe I've "underestimated" your experience, JB.<br />I apologise if I've over-steped.......<br />LubeDude, I understand your reasoning as well, but the paper work we get with all of our equipment-service bullitens, manuals, whatever, Do not indicate in any way, to NOT use TC-W3.<br />I've used Outboard oil in every 2-stroke piece of equipment we've got, and have NEVER had a problem with any of the equipment. I've got a RYOBI 31cc trimmer that I've used for years, (1993) for trimming around our aircraft hangers, runway lights, gates....whatever at the airport, and it has seen way more duty time than the average consumer, and I do all of the maintenance, Preventative and other-wise, and I just don't have any problems using a TC-W3.<br />On the other post, I seen one that said "in less than one tank of gas, my trimmer was ruined" (credit given to using TC-W3)<br />In that case, No, I KNOW it wasn't the oil.......<br />As stated above guys, I must respect your opinion, and I do...this subject just caught me as "strange that my engine manfctr's manual says nothing of TC-W3 not being used".<br />Carry on.....

 

[RatFish]

Re: Air-cooled vs. Water-cooled

I'm with JB and LubeDude on this one. They have provided the analysis, I'll provide the test results. A few years back, I used OMC TCW-3 at the manufacturer ratio of 32:1 in a hand held leaf blower that was a little over a year old. I used about 1/2 to 3/4 tank of gas (not at constant full throttle) and the blower eventually lost power and died. I burned it up! I bought the exact model blower again and run only oil specified for 2-Stroke, air cooled engines. It's now about 4 years old and runs just fine.<br /><br />EDIT: walleyehed, I'm the guy that said "in less than one tank of gas, my trimmer(?) was ruined". Coincidence? Maybe. But when I bought my new blower the guy at the shop said the TCW-3 oil is what killed my engine. I did not want to test his theory on my dime. Never tried it again. Never had another problem. Coincidence? Maybe.

 

[LubeDude]

Re: Air-cooled vs. Water-cooled

It boils down to , "sometimes you get away with it and sometimes you dont" Why push it??<br /><br />It also depends on how hard you are running a particular device! Ive seen people wind there blowers out to the max all the time and there trimmers too! Not necesary most of the time! Also a chainsaw should not be tuned too a crisp sound, (too Lean), it sould be tuned to a blubbering sound! (Richer),<br /><br />there is a difference!!<br /><br />LubeDude

 

[SpinnerBait_Nut]

Re: Air-cooled vs. Water-cooled

I'll throw my .02 worth in here.<br />It might not mean much but here goes anyway.<br /><br />I retired off the over the road stuff in 1985 and started a landscaping/lawn care business which among other things , I still have and always used outboard motor oil in my 2 cycle engines.<br /><br />Why, because I always had it around and I just used it.<br /><br />I can say that I never had a Homelite fail on me because of it.<br /><br />May have worn them out after hours and hours of use, but not because of the oil I used.<br /><br />Maybe I was just lucky, I don't know, but I do know that it worked for me and still does.<br />I still use it today in my Lawnboys/Homelites, with no problems.<br /><br />OK, I'll shut up now.

 

[LubeDude]

Re: Air-cooled vs. Water-cooled

After saying what I have, Ill say this!!<br /><br />Ive been around a lot od 2 stroke guys in my life, MX Bikes, minny bikes, four wheelers, chain saws, weed eaters, outboards, and others! EVERY TIME there has been a seizure in one of those engines they ALWAYS went to another Brand of oil!! If it breaks, it MUST be the oil, RIGHT?????????????????????????<br /><br />LubeDude

 

[JasonJ]

Re: Air-cooled vs. Water-cooled

I'm thinking I'll stick with using air-cooled specific oils for the weedeater, and water-cooled oils for the outboard. Its good that some have success doing it their way, but I don't think I want to take the chance. There is no monetary benefit to using one oil in the different applications, it seems like it is more an "I have it laying around so I'll use it" deal. Me, its not a big deal to get the seperate oils. I do think I'll try some Quicksilver on my 69 Merc 1250 next season. I've been using the Supertech and it has been fine, but I want to do a decarb and try the Quicksilver....<br /><br />Also, someone mentioned how the equipment is being used. We have all seen the guy down the street who runs his weedeater WOT all the time just to get a couple blades of grass. The person who only uses enough throttle to get the job done is the one who will have less problems, regardless of the oil....

 

[james082273]

Re: Air-cooled vs. Water-cooled

My input....I have a Toro 2-cycle lawn mower thats been in use around 15 years and still going strong. I would think a little bit of everything has been used in it. Mostly outboard oil since that was what we had around most of the time.<br /><br />Personally I think they came out with an "Air Cooled 2-cycle" oil as more of a marketing scheme then anything else. But what do I know?

 

[SpinnerBait_Nut]

Re: Air-cooled vs. Water-cooled

Jason said;<br />

Also, someone mentioned how the equipment is being used. We have all seen the guy down the street who runs his weedeater WOT all the time just to get a couple blades of grass. The person who only uses enough throttle to get the job done is the one who will have less problems, regardless of the oil....

Jason, don't know what weed eaters you use, but homelite states to run at WOT all the time for proper lubrication.<br />Slow speeds do not allow the little engine to suck enough oil in.

 

[pjc]

Re: Air-cooled vs. Water-cooled

I jumped in sometime back on a chainsaw thread--oils were discussed.<br />If I just spent three, four hundred on a saw, or whatever I'm gonna follow the book on what oil spec to use. Not necessarily Stihl Oil, but the correct rating.<br />Why????---one word--warranty.<br /><br />(edit) and furthermore, back in '77 bought a brand new Suzuki RM250 for racing (MX)-broke that beast in on rich(20:1)Castrol R bean oil. After BI, pulled head-cleaned gunk off. From then on used Belray MC-1 synthetic @ 40:1. That motor always performed like pretty much new through two seasons of one week a month races (12 months) as well as play racing and some fast trail stuff. Always good compression, never a fouled plug and only minimal deposits in cyl head. <br />As I recall, that BI procedure was recommended by Suz.

 

[gss036]

Re: Air-cooled vs. Water-cooled

I just read my owners manual for my new Husky 459 chainsaw and it specifically says not to use outboard marine oil in the chainsaw, (I WONDER WHY). While in WallyMart I looked at thier non TCW3 oil and it says not for use in outboard engines.<br />I use Klotz synthetic mototrcycle racing oil in my saw,weedeaters, blowers, etc. I think any brand synthetic would work as well and you will not be seizing up your engines. You don't use that much oil in a season anyway and it is well worth the extra $1.00 per year.

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Air-cooled vs. Water-cooled

I know ya'll don't want to hear this but I have used ***oil Synthetic, AT A RATIO OF 100:1, in EVERY two cylce motor I have ever owned. Never had an engine failure and hardly ever have to change plugs.<br /><br />1968 185cc Kawasaki motorcyle. still running<br />1979 100 HP Evindrude OB pushing a big ol' 10x30 <br /> patio boat. (8 years, sold boat)<br />Lightly used but 10 y/o McCoulough chain saw. still in use<br />1988 heavily used echo string edger. still in use.<br />1988 heavily used yard blower. still in use.<br />1990 little Mantis garden tiller. still in use<br /><br />My .02

 

[LubeDude]

Re: Air-cooled vs. Water-cooled

And the winner is?????????????????????????<br /><br />The 100:1 ****oil is a great product, I too have done the same thing, also in my outboards! The new injector oil at 50:1 is a better product now for outboards! Dont tell anyone, but if you mix the injection at 50:1 because of the solvents in the injector oil it is almost the same as the 100:1 oil!! But because it says 50:1 people feel better about it!!!<br /><br />Ah shucks, the secret is out!! <br /><br />LubeDude

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Air-cooled vs. Water-cooled

How's come it got so quiet out????

 

[walleyehed]

Re: Air-cooled vs. Water-cooled

Some of ya just don't understand a 2-stroke oil that is labeled TC-W3 has to meet criteria for 2-stroke AIR-COOLED engines as well as water-cooled, to be certified for TC-W3!!!!!!!!<br />That is one of the MINUMUM standards.<br /><br />Edit: BTW, the understanding that those of you have of air-cooled 2-strokes, really shows through if you think a small chainsaw engine can "COOL" at partial throttle. Thats the best way to shorten the life, as the flywheel is finned for the purpose of cooling the engine...they are designed and intended to be run WIDE OPEN, with high speed mixture set at a point as to create a "4-stroke" sound.

 

[JasonJ]

Re: Air-cooled vs. Water-cooled

Run 'em wide open all the time? Interesting, I'll have to see if I can find my manual. If that is the case, they should have a switch and not a variable throttle, so it is either idling or wide open. From a standpoint of operating temps and lubrication, it is getting enough lubrication regardless and the heat will be proportional to the work load, but it would be unwise to try to put an excessive load on it at too low of rpms, that would build up a lot of heat and stress as it is out of its powerband. I have had my weedeater for five years, it still starts on the first few pulls, still runs good, and I will never run it wide open unless I am in some nasty thick stuff. <br /><br />I am not arguing the proper use of a small 2 cycle motor, I know it is meant to run wide open while it is being worked hard, but you can't tell me that you walk around with it wide open even when you aren't cutting something. Usually when you are weedeating (or whatever), you work it, and let it idle while walking over to the next area to work. That is not going to shorten the life of the motor. Using the wrong mix, putting too much of a load at too low of rpms, thats what kills these motors. You can tell by the sound if it is being worked poorly or properly, you don't have to just wring the snot out of it 24/7 for two blades of grass.

 

[walleyehed]

Re: Air-cooled vs. Water-cooled

putting too much of a load at too low of rpms, thats what kills these motors.

Now ya got it!!!!!!!!High manifold pressure/low RPM kills....If you're putting a load on it, ya better be at WFO, or you're gonna ruin it.<br />Who said anything about walking around with it at WOT anyway???????<br />If you can't use common sense when running this type of equipment, or if you REALLY don't understand the proper operation, you shouldn't be allowed to own it. <br /> I can see the majority here knows way more than I will ever understand about this subject, so have fun!

 

[JasonJ]

Re: Air-cooled vs. Water-cooled

Walleye, I think we all are saying the same thing pretty much, just with different wording, and as I have owned and operated my fair share of small engined equipment, I have pretty much always "had it". I have also known my share of "challenged" people who, for whatever reason, cannot help but kill every internal combustion engine they have, even when they read the book. Its like they have some curse over their head that dictates that anything more complex than a potato peeler will self destruct..