After rocking excessively engine has no gas to start...

[Gfmclachlan]

Johnson 1987 60 hp. Starts fine at dock, runs great while underway. But if i cut engine and float and rock from waves for a while the carbs seem to empty the fuel i guess and the fuel pump wont get fuel in there when i try to start it.And the bulb holds prime so i doubt its an air in the line issue.Lifting engine up and down a dozen times Sometimes helps get it started. But unsure. It makes no other noise like gurgles or anything. just the starter. And then after a while of trying(like 15 times over 15 -60 minutes)it just seems to get gas and fires right up and runs great.where is the gas leaking from first of all. Vro pump was removed years ago. Carbs rebuilt 3 years ago. Thanks.

 

[Joe Reeves]

When (before) you attempt to re-start the engine... do you pump the fuel primer bulb up hard?

 

[Gfmclachlan]

Yes. And continue as i try to start. The first time this happened it wouldnt hold prime well. I thought maybe i didnt have the fuel line angled up just right thought that was it. but today second time this happened it was solid the whole time til it finally started.

 

[Joe Reeves]

If you're using a portable fuel tank, and if fuel is being siphoned back into the tank, I'd suspect a bad valve in the fuel primer bulb. If using a built in tank, I'd suspect a faulty anti siphon valve at the fuel supply hook up... the fuel line attaches to it at the tank.

However, if fuel is being supplied to the carburetors when you pump the fuel bulb... and the carburetors are not flooding, (remove carb face plate to observe)... it's possible that the problem is not fuel but a case that the stator (beginning of charging & ignition system) under the flywheel is failing, starting to melt down, and if so, that would cause weak, erratic spark, and eventually no ignition.

The stator supplies AC voltage to the powerpack capacitor, needed to energize the pack.

Stators, when they start melting down, may function perfectly when cool... BUT... when hot (sitting, all that heat travels up to the flywheel area), they can fail completely, then later as they cool down, start to function again.

This is something you can check visually without dismantling anything. Just look closely under the flywheel at that stator to see if there's a sticky looking substance dripping down on the powerhead area. Let us know what you fine.

 

[Gfmclachlan]

Interesting. Ive been having to charge my battery every two weeks too. Albeit its a few years old(but well maintained)but we may be on to something:will report...

 

[oldboat1]

Or -- you could have wiring or starter issues -- not cranking fast enough for firing. More cranking discharges battery, which leads to slower cranking, which leads to additional attempts, etc. etc. Might have the battery checked, or replace it with new (about 600 cca). Starter can be removed, disassembled and cleaned -- rebuilt if necessary. Additionally, the battery may not be charging, particularly if the stator is an issue. Check battery voltage at rest and when underway.

 

[Gfmclachlan]

Haven’t tested yet but is this what im looking for i imagine? Black gunk. Also, can i cause more damage to anything if i take a chamce and get a few more runs in before i actually try to fix this?

 

[Scott Danforth]

I would fix it prior to getting stranded.

 

[Joe Reeves]

It's hard for me to see exactly what you're pointing to... BUT... if that's gunk dripping out of the stator, you could lose your ignition completely at any time.

 

[Gfmclachlan]

Yeah that’s gunk from stator. A mechanic said first change battery. Maybe stator is working so hard to recharge battery and that’s why it began to melt. I changed battery out and It happened again yesterday so I’m not going out again. how else do I confirm it’s not just wiring, solenoid etc vs stator(although melting stator is good sign I guess...but how do I know that gunk wasn’t from 1995? I know this was rebuilt years ago).?the black gunk was hard when I checked it. Again, when I turn key the flywheel spins fast and hard for as long as I hold key on. Every time, so it just doesn’t seem like it has gas, or I guess spark from electrical. Are multimeter tests the only way to test at this point before I start throwing parts at it? thanks.

 

[fireman57]

I don't understand something. These guys diagnosed your problem and told you that you could be stranded. You confirmed the diagnoses with the pictures of a stator going bad and you want to still blame it on wiring. The gunk will harden when it cools. It is not a particularly tough job to replace a stator. Pulling the flywheel is really about the hardest part. Make sure you torque it back down to spec. You can go to cdi's website and they have troubleshooting there for the stator if you want to test it first.

 

[Gfmclachlan]

No not really thinking wires myself but I was also told that even though stator has shown the melt down that it may not be “bad” as in ready to be replaced. That it could have been working overtime to charge battery (therefore melting)...So it could have been a bad battery. And if that was it it could still have life. If that’s true idk.

In lieu of that, i know folks here and myself included always prefer to completely diagnose before throwing money at parts. So I guess I can start by asking does a melt down of stator should be where I stop and just replace?

or is there anything else I can look at as well? Like I mentioned flywheel turns hard and fast after I turn key switch every time.
And keeps going that way.

Last thing..at the dock yesterday on the way out, it did the same thing but my wife pressed the fuel bulb(although it seemed hard I said do it anyway) as I kept key on and it slowly fired up. Off we went and after 30 min it did it again. Just flywheel spinning. But this time fuel bulb was hard and fuel was in fuel filter so idk. Could be a couple things going on. After 30 minutes of trolling back with motorguide it did fire up again and back we went. Not going back out til I figure it out. Thanks.

 

[Joe Reeves]

Fireman has pretty much summed it up, however.......... Your mechanic's advice puzzles me and his methods leave a lot to be desired. I strongly advise you to have the flywheel removed so that you can closely and visually inspect that stator and if it is indeed melting down, to replace it regardless of whatever readings you may get out of it.

As I mentioned earlier, the stator is the beginning of both the battery charging and ignition system.... the ignition side of it supplies approximately 300 AC volts to the powerpack capacitor which is required to energize the powerpack. When a stator starts to melt down which is common on the high hp 35 ampere charging systems... BUT... not on the lower charging systems such as yours... the result is that the ignition becomes erratic, weak, and eventually no ignition.

At the start of a meltdown, the stator may function perfectly when cool, but fail as it heats up. I suspect that your engine's stator has melted down as a result of a failed, shorter rectifier... or... voltage regulator/rectifier assembly if so equipped. Don't overlook that component.

As it stands, the first thing you want to do is to verify if that stator has melted down or not! DO NOT play guessing games. On this site, you're obtaining advice from technicians with 30 or more years experience... think about that!

 

[Gfmclachlan]

Prior to reading your post I spoke to marine parts company and discussed rectifier too and ordered both stator and rectifier. So everyone is on same page on that component as well. The stator definelty had the Black(sheathing?) melted on the block and elsewhere. It’s obvious no need to pull a part now. Hoping problem will end there. Will report operation when installed, thanks.

 

[oldboat1]

If my motor, I would want to see if that ignition system is producing. Measure the spark. If less than about 7/16 inch and weak, you've gone a long ways to confirming a dying stator.

 

[Joe Reeves]

Smart move my friend..... We wish you luck. Be sure to torque the flywheel nut to factory specifications so as to avoid a key shearing experience.

 

[oldboat1]

If the battery is charging, the rectifier is good (worth saving for a backup) — simple way of checking it.

 

[Gfmclachlan]

Replaced stator and rectifier. Both were shot. Took it out all day yesterday. Fired up every time. Battery charged too, all works great. Thanks, that was a good diagnosis.

 

[Joe Reeves]

Told'ya so, told'ya so!