93 octane or ethanol????

[jefffly]

Okay so I know they say its bad to put higher octane fuel in your outboard but im having really bad issues with ethanol fuel and I cant get regular unleaded without ethanol in my area only one fuel station carries 93 octane free of ethanol so is it better to use the 93 or just keep trying to treat the ethanol stuff which I have had no luck doing???

 

[Beefer]

Re: 93 octane or ethanol????

Let's start by re-capping the issues you've been having with the ethanol, and then we can go from there.
If ethanol was the only thing available in my area, I'd go with it. As far as the additives.... the jury is still out on that (and it's a huge jury). I think you may end up with more problems running the 93, but I'm not a fuel expert, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express... ever.

 

[trendsetter240]

Re: 93 octane or ethanol????

There is nothing wrong with running 93 octane ethanol free gasoline in outboards.

Your engine will run perfectly fine, it's just more expensive.

After hundreds and hundreds of hours, I've determined that my outboards prefer the 89 octane mid grade from my local fuel dock. Only time I ever had ethanol issues was with 87 from gas stations on land. I've run 91 and 93 many times without issue.

 

[DaNinja]

Re: 93 octane or ethanol????

I need 93 or a booster in the truck. I don't need 93 in the boat, but I've had water issues in the fuel if ethanol fuel sits in it for an extended time. Both get non-ethanol fuel for different reasons.

 

[jeeperman]

Re: 93 octane or ethanol????

I need 93 or a booster in the truck. I don't need 93 in the boat, but I've had water issues in the fuel if ethanol fuel sits in it for an extended time. Both get non-ethanol fuel for different reasons.

So what are you going to do after Dec. 31st, 2010 (just over 60 days from now) when all land vehicle gas stations can only sell 10%+ ethanoled gas?

 

[DaNinja]

Re: 93 octane or ethanol????

So what are you going to do after Dec. 31st, 2010 (just over 60 days from now) when all land vehicle gas stations can only sell 10%+ ethanoled gas?

Change back to the stock computer or stock up on booster. Even with the stock computer, the 360 has never run well on less than 93.

 

[jefffly]

Re: 93 octane or ethanol????

The longest the boat has sat is 3 weeks and both times is when ive had the issue. my kicker motor which I relize is carburated but also a new 2010 four stroke with 100 hrs on it runs like a top never misses a beat using the same fuel I really think that if fuel is going all ethanol then the outboard companys are in for a rude awakening cause I know if they cant find a way to make them less senisitive to a little sh*t in the fuel once everything goes 15% ethanol (which you know it will!!) these motors are gonna be garbage to much money in additives and stuff to afford to keep them going!
already very frustrated with my new yammy have taken all the precautions from day one and still having issues

 

[veritas honus]

Re: 93 octane or ethanol????

So what are you going to do after Dec. 31st, 2010 (just over 60 days from now) when all land vehicle gas stations can only sell 10%+ ethanoled gas?

I havn't heard anything about this. Is this really a done deal.
My local gas station whose prices are generally 20 cents higher than everywhere else has no ethenol in any of their fuel. Am I about to lose this GEM???

 

[rallyart]

Re: 93 octane or ethanol????

On the issue of running too high an octane rating, it just burns a little slower so you lose a little power if you use a fuel with a higher rating than is recommended. On the issue of ethanol, it tends to wreck some plastics by making them brittle but all newer motors are made to handle that. It is also a cosolvent with water and gasolines so it can absorb moisture from humid air and add it to the fuel. This also means that it picks up any water in the tank and it gets run through the engine with no long term effect, but it does drop power slightly. Most would not notice any of these power losses. Gas line antifreeze you buy is usually just an alcohol. If it's the only fuel available I would have no problem running in most vehicles.
I do not think you will see a requirement for higher than 10% for several reasons. The biggest is that most ethanol used in fuels in North America comes from corn and does not cut much from greenhouse gasses or pollution on a net basis. It just adds 10% to the available fuel and raises the price of corn dogs.

 

[Haffiman]

Re: 93 octane or ethanol????

Increasing octane only means you may compress it more before it self-ignites. This gives that it is possible to advance ignition and run a higher compression rate. Two strokes in general are low compression compared to 4-strokes. Most modern 4-strokes (EFI engines) uses a knock sensor to determine the max possible ignition advance with relation to fuel quality and compression, 2-strokes does not have this feature. Most of them run perfectly down in the 87 level when it comes to octane. You may increase the octane as much as you want, but will not get any advantage out of it as your ignition stays as set mechanically.
The main disadvantage with Ethanol fuel is that it may be a bit aggressive on gaskets and plastic parts, and it may wash away the oil-film!!
Some people run Ethanol mix without problems. some gets problems. That may not be due to the ethanol itself, but from where they bought it.
Buy from a station with GRP storage tanks and with a weekly refill as well as a weekly check on water in the storage tanks!!!
Ethanol mixed fuel has a shorter 'shelf life' an a bit more sensitive to storage conditions.

 

[Cannondale]

Re: 93 octane or ethanol????

So what are you going to do after Dec. 31st, 2010 (just over 60 days from now) when all land vehicle gas stations can only sell 10%+ ethanoled gas?

Never heard this was going to happen. Could you provide a link like from the EPA or whoever is responsible for this? My searching of the EPA, FTC, etc., has turned up nothing.

 

[Brewman61]

Re: 93 octane or ethanol????

In Minnesota, most all of our pump gas already has the mandatory 10% ethanol as an oxygenator- since the last oxygenator was made illegal.
We can also purchase E85 for those who for some reason want to use it.
Non oxygenated (no ethanol) gas is avaialble at some places for specialized use like boats, collector cars, small engines, etc....
Nothing will change on January 1st, at least not here. There is no mandate yet to sell gas with a higher than 10% ethanol content, at least not yet.
Certainly not as soon as January 1.

 

[H20Rat]

Re: 93 octane or ethanol????

So what are you going to do after Dec. 31st, 2010 (just over 60 days from now) when all land vehicle gas stations can only sell 10%+ ethanoled gas?

please don't post mis-information... (of which that is)

Ethanol concentrations are state laws, not federal. There is NO federal law on the books currently or going into effect on Dec 31st that specifies ethanol.

 

[H20Rat]

Re: 93 octane or ethanol????

I need 93 or a booster in the truck. I don't need 93 in the boat, but I've had water issues in the fuel if ethanol fuel sits in it for an extended time. Both get non-ethanol fuel for different reasons.

You may want to research the 'octane boosters'. Most of them do very little if anything. Read the label closely if you don't believe it, they actually do tell you...

Here is a link to one, the rest are all very similar.

http://www.allbatterysalesandservice.com/browse.cfm/4,4006.html

See where it mentions it raises it 3 point? A 'point' is considered 1/10 of a whole number, so if you have 12 gallons of gas at 87, dumping in this entire thing will raise it to 87.3. (most are rated at 12 gallons of gas) If you have 24 gallons, you get a whopping 87.15 instead of regular old crappy 87.00.



The ABSOLUTE best octane booster is e85, period. Its between 105 and 115 octane, and will mix in a relatively linear fashion. The tricky part is you can't generally run a nice mix of 100 octane without other engine/fuel mods. The second best octane booster is naphtha. I forgot the effective octane concentration, but IIRC it was about 20:1 to get 97 octane.


(I've done TONS of research on this subject, I tune the computer systems on my turbocharged car often with my own custom map/tuning information. Currently I'm set up to burn a 60/40 mix of 91 octane gasoline and e85, which is about 97 octane.)

 

[jeeperman]

Re: 93 octane or ethanol????

please don't post mis-information... (of which that is)

Ethanol concentrations are state laws, not federal. There is NO federal law on the books currently or going into effect on Dec 31st that specifies ethanol.

I did not post anything about Federal regs on mandates or % requirements.

But I see that the use of the word "all" does make the post read as an allover mandate.
I meant to say Florida.

So let me say that there is a Dec. 31, 2010 Florida mandate for only ethanoled gasoline to be sold to land vehicles.

Making Florida #10 of states that mandate ethanol in the gasoline sold at least to land vehicles.

My bad.

 

[DaNinja]

Re: 93 octane or ethanol????

You may want to research the 'octane boosters'. Most of them do very little if anything. Read the label closely if you don't believe it, they actually do tell you...

Here is a link to one, the rest are all very similar.

http://www.allbatterysalesandservice.com/browse.cfm/4,4006.html

See where it mentions it raises it 3 point? A 'point' is considered 1/10 of a whole number, so if you have 12 gallons of gas at 87, dumping in this entire thing will raise it to 87.3. (most are rated at 12 gallons of gas) If you have 24 gallons, you get a whopping 87.15 instead of regular old crappy 87.00.



The ABSOLUTE best octane booster is e85, period. Its between 105 and 115 octane, and will mix in a relatively linear fashion. The tricky part is you can't generally run a nice mix of 100 octane without other engine/fuel mods. The second best octane booster is naphtha. I forgot the effective octane concentration, but IIRC it was about 20:1 to get 97 octane.


(I've done TONS of research on this subject, I tune the computer systems on my turbocharged car often with my own custom map/tuning information. Currently I'm set up to burn a 60/40 mix of 91 octane gasoline and e85, which is about 97 octane.)

I understand what you're saying. I just know that I can tell immediately on the on-ramp when the wife has filled the truck with 87. I also know how much water I pulled out of the boat gas after being put up with a tank of ethanol gas.

 

[Wingpilot]

Re: 93 octane or ethanol????

Actually, the general statement "..land vehicles" really should not be used. There are so many exemptions from the requirements; motorcycles, off-road vehicles (open to interpretation), collector (I guess that means antique) cars, small engines (what is "small"?), aircraft, boats and similar watercraft (?), and any fuel sold to a blender (I have a blender in my kitchen). This will be an interesting transition. And finding a supplier of non-ethanol gas for my bike- which I MUST have- will now be more difficult - especially when on a trip. I may have to put an auxilliary tank in one of my saddlebags.
Note that the above applies to the State of Florida law.

 

[generator12]

Re: 93 octane or ethanol????

For what it's worth, I ran an old ('79) Chrysler 135 outboard on whatever fuel the local stations provided from the time it was brand new until I sold it this past summer.

That means it ran on ethanol virtually it's whole life. And run it did. Only problem I ever had that was fuel related was a couple of years ago when three of my engines (boat, lawn tractor, weed-eater) all had carb float problems upon spring start-up. As far as I can tell, it was the gas from the nearest station (Citgo) that was responsible, as I filled all tanks with their stuff. (And I don't use Citgo any longer for that reason...)

So, despite the warnings and panic flagging, I continue to use (non-Citgo) ethanol in all my stuff - Merc 170 included. Hell, it's all I can buy in Wisconsin.

I say you'll be alright with 87 octane 10% ethanol.