90 hp force wont turn over! help!

[Noel82]

recently bought boat, didnt start then changed battery cables and fired right up. added fuel water separator, new fuel lines, plugs. started enough for me to take it out once. got water in fuel tank, new slough of problems. currently testing by bypassing separator and straight into 50 to 1 mix plus a can of seafoam. replaced starter as it was going bad and needed done anyways. tested solenoid, ok. compression was 120, 140, 120, not terrible. cranks all day but not start. new primer bulb. drained and primed carbs to remove any water, cranked her up without plugs to blow them out too then fired up once great, ran for a minute turned it off and hasnt cranked since. also, recently replaced kill switch, though somehow now it tries to crank without me even pressing in the button.. could this be my problem? also havent changed diaphram could that be a next place to start? i am gonna try a wet compression test tomorrow and spray some seafoam into the cylinder heads see if i free up anything.. maybe try spraying the carb vents? how do i unclog those? so many questions! first outboard, im lost.. not ready to take it to a mechanic until i get the basic tests out of the way. about to go buy a digital multimeter to test stator.. could that be it? any help is appreciated, new to forum, love it so far.

 

[TwoFish]

Re: 90 hp force wont turn over! help!

Welcome to the board Noel82.
It?s a great board with some very experience and helpful people.

If you want to work on the motor yourself a workshop manual is a must.

Generally its compression, sparks, and then fuel when trying to find a fault. You have compression but it sounds like you have a wiring problem to sort out before you even try to get the motor started. It should not be trying to crank over on its own. A multi meter will help but you will need a wiring diagram for it to make much sense. You are getting power to the low amperage side of the solenoid for some reason causing the starter to work. You will need the meter to trace this.

You may already know this but make sure ground the sparkplug wires when cranking the engine over with the plugs removed. The coils can be damaged if not grounded.

An inline spark tester will let you see if all cylinders are getting a good spark.

If that checks out you may have a fuel problem. If you have a fuel pump kit coming defiantly fit it. There are some very good write-ups in the Engine Frequently Asked Question Section in the repair section on this site. They show you how to clean carbys, check float levels and tune an engine.

Good luck

 

[jerryjerry05]

Re: 90 hp force wont turn over! help!

Fill out the profile.U might be close to someone who can help.If it's turning over on its own then u probably need a switch.Or try spraying WD-40 in the switch and turn it on and off all the while pushing in the choke.
Compression sounds ok.Diaphram wouldn't stop it from turning over.Squeezing the bulb would push enough fuel to get it to start.Make sure the carbs are clean.J

 

[Noel82]

Re: 90 hp force wont turn over! help!

i will fill out profile.. i do have a wiring diagram in my seloc manual. i replaced the kill switch because the other one had no lanyard with it and you had to hold the button down while running so i put a new one in. the lanyard worked for a day or so then it didnt matter whether you pushed the button or not. we are talking about the kill switch and not choke, i will see of old switch works. wiring shouldnt be an issue, just had 2 leads i disconnected and reconnected in the same spot... i will test with multimeter, any basic instructions on how to test my kill switch with muiltimeter? what setting? its new, why would it go bad, and it fired up with same switch on it multiple times? i will do the carb cleaning as well.. ordered new diaphragm this morning.

 

[carholme]

Re: 90 hp force wont turn over! help!

Noel;

Suggest you get a real manual, those Selocs have something to be desired.
If you provide the s/n, model number of your engine, we can provide you with a parts listing.

Here is a page where you can verify the Seloc wiring diagram if they fit your engine:

http://www.maxrules.com/fixforcewiring.html

Gerry

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: 90 hp force wont turn over! help!

What year is your 90 Force? It makes a difference if it has mercury wiring or older US marine wiring.

 

[Noel82]

Re: 90 hp force wont turn over! help!

its a 1990/1991 908F91C serial number... so today i completely unplugged the kill switch and it still cranked.. not sure where to start testing but i know after one or 2 cranks the starter died, battery was still at 10 volts, starter motor was very hot, red cable was not. starter and solenoid are new.. they were rewired the exact way they were before... any advice on how to use the multimeter? what setting should it be on? D/C? ohms?

 

[TwoFish]

Re: 90 hp force wont turn over! help!

Sounds like you battery is very flat or it has dropped a cell. Each cell has 2.1 volts for a total of 12.6 volts. If the battery is down on power it wont have enough power to turn the starter but it will have enough power to heat it up. May pay to get your battery tested.

Ohms for testing resistance or testing whether a circuit is open or closed. Volts DC for measuring power in the circuit.

As far as the safety switch goes I cant remember whether it is an open or closed circuit. Eg power runs through it when it is on and not when it is off or if it earths the circuit to prevent it running. Hopefully someone else will know this.

At this stage I think your battery is the problem. It should be closer to 12.6 volts.

 

[Noel82]

Re: 90 hp force wont turn over! help!

the battery is all of 48 hours old... i would suspect its voltage dropped after me cranking the starter for ten minutes, doesnt that drain the battery?

 

[TwoFish]

Re: 90 hp force wont turn over! help!

In your last post you said the starter died after 1 or 2 cranks. Didn?t realise it was a new battery. The battery should read 12.6 volts. It may just need recharging.

Only run the started for 30 seconds or so at a time and give it time to cool down in between. Continual cranking will only overheat the starter and damage it.

Is the motor cranking over OK now, but just not firing?

Are you getting a spark on all cylinders?

 

[Noel82]

Re: 90 hp force wont turn over! help!

ill take another look in the morning.. i noticed in the wiring diagram that the 2 leads from the kill switch go directly to the ignition switch... i hope my problem lies in there somewhere.. i know the rule of thumb is compression, spark, fuel, where does electrical come into play? im currently doing compression, fuel, starting system... could a bad ground or wire lead to a bad spark? did i just answer my own question? should i do a spark test? ok ill do a spark test. if it gets good spark would it be a coil pack? ignition coil? where to go from there if spark is good?

 

[TwoFish]

Re: 90 hp force wont turn over! help!

Give your battery a good charge & see if the spark is good. Can?t be too much as you have had the motor running out on the water once.

How did it perform when it was running?

Good Luck

 

[Noel82]

Re: 90 hp force wont turn over! help!

once it ran it ran great.. never stalled, idled perfect, throttle nice, shifting nice, WOT got me up to 32 mph no prob, never ran hot (new water pump too), just can get it fired up now! also, cant find a spark plug "tester", guy at the store said i can do it by holding the plug out of cylinder near the boot and crank to check for spark, that doesnt seem very safe.. what can plug rest on, is it safe to hold rubber wire to a plug when firing?

 

[carholme]

Re: 90 hp force wont turn over! help!

Noel;

Here is the parts listing for your engine:

http://www.crowleymarine.com/mercury-outboard/1364.cfm

Gerry

 

[TwoFish]

Re: 90 hp force wont turn over! help!

You can test the spark that way but I never like the idea. Fuel, naked spark etc. I would not hold the sparkplug lead as I really really hate getting a jolt. You need to earth the outside of the plug using this method to get it to spark. A jumper cable works well. One end to the block of the motor & the other to the outside metal of the plug. It might pay to remove all the plugs so you don?t have it starting on 2 cylinders by mistake. As mentioned earlier earth the other plugs. Give the plugs a good clean before you start.

The advantage of the spark tester is it lets you see if the spark breaks down at different revs but thats not the problem at the moment. Ebay or iboats sell them. If you are like me I could not wait that long though.

If the spark checks out OK is your choke working properly? As your motor runs well when it is going it could be as simple as the choke. Mine will not start from cold without choke.

 

[Noel82]

Re: 90 hp force wont turn over! help!

found my problem. or at least "a" problem... "a" for another... my new starter has the bendix gear stuck up against the flywheel. there is a little play up there so its definately jammed up inside the starter. wouldnt that explain not needing anything hooked to solenoid? does anyone know how to unjam a bendix gear?

 

[TwoFish]

Re: 90 hp force wont turn over! help!

Take you sparkplug leads off so it doesn?t start. Use a socket set to try rock the flywheel back & forth. If this does not work use a piece of wood & a hammer to gently tap the bendix gear down whilst rocking the flywheel.

You could also just unbolt the starter and wind the bendix down.

Mine stuck occasionally until I put a small amount of grease on the flywheel teeth and a small amount of Singer machine oil or lithium grease on the bendix shaft. It also stuck once when the nut on top of the started loosened and allowed the bendix gear to rise too high on the starter shaft causing it to bind on the flywheel.

When you get it unstuck wind the bendix up by hand to see how well it meshes with the flywheel teeth. Look at the teeth on the bendix gear for marks that might indicated problems with alignment.

As far as the solenoid goes we may be talking about different things. You were talking about it working without pushing a button. There are two solenoids that I know of that effect starting. The starter solenoid sends power to the starter when you turn the key. Just like in a car. The choke solenoid works the choke mechanism when the key is pushed in. Both solenoids make a clicking noise. Neither solenoid should be working unless you turn the key or push the key in.

 

[NYBo]

Re: 90 hp force wont turn over! help!

How many terminals are there on the replacement kill switch? Gener4ic switches have 4: 2 for outboards, 2 for I/Os and inboards. You must use the correct terminals or it will work the opposite of the way it's intended.

 

[Noel82]

Re: 90 hp force wont turn over! help!

there are 4 terminals, i will switch them and see what happens....
and i tihnk i should get the starter up and going no problem, what is that nut holding in on the top? is it all spring loaded?

 

[TwoFish]

Re: 90 hp force wont turn over! help!

It?s not spring loaded as such. It does have a spring and a washer between it and the gear that drives the flywheel. It is there to stop the gear from flying off the top of the starter. You should not need to remove it to unstick your starter.