85hp force will not start. Fuel not getting to cylinders.

[Matthewg94]

So I just rebuilt my 1989 force 85hp 856x9E and it won't start. I used a newer 90hp block with the rebuild. Wiseco pistons to match the bore. I'm getting 140 psi on all 3 cylinders. I have spark on all 3 cylinders. I verified that fuel is getting to all the carburetors. When I cover each carb with my hand it would sputter a bit and gas would pour out of the carb. The top carb has noticable suction. The bottom 2, I'd have to double check but they didn't seem to have as much vacuum in them. I have the mixture screws set at 1.5 turns out. When I prime the carbs with a bottle of premix it sounds like it's trying to start for a moment but never actually runs on it's own for more than half a second. I checked the reeds and none of them are stuck open at all. My only concern is that there may be a vacuum leak somewhere, but where? One thing I noticed about the 90hp block is that there are 3 small 1/8 vacuum fittings on each side of the motor 6 total. I figured I would eliminate those since they are part of a recirculation system that I didn't have on my 89 so I ran vacuum lines from each side to each other. Other than that I have one unaccounted for fitting, right on the bottom of the reed plate. So are there any vacuum leaks I should be looking for? Or could it be a possible wiring problem like mismatched wires causing the wrong firing sequence?

 

[The Force power]

One thing I noticed about the 90hp block is that there are 3 small 1/8 vacuum fittings on each side of the motor 6 total. I figured I would eliminate those since they are part of a recirculation system that I didn't have on my 89 so I ran vacuum lines from each side to each other. Other than that I have one unaccounted for fitting, right on the bottom of the reed plate. So are there any vacuum leaks I should be looking for? Or could it be a possible wiring problem like mismatched wires causing the wrong firing sequence?

You figured wrong, put them back!
The older style bock HAS a circulation-system in the shape of a dog-bone.
I suggest go over the wiring again, perhaps you set-up the trigger-wires wrong??

 

[The Force power]

Maybe this helps

 

[jerryjerry05]

You didn't mention the choke or primer?
What system do you have?
The primer can leak and cause a no start situation??
Not using the choke you won't get the enriched air/fuel needed to start.

 

[Matthewg94]

You figured wrong, put them back!
The older style bock HAS a circulation-system in the shape of a dog-bone.
I suggest go over the wiring again, perhaps you set-up the trigger-wires wrong

Put them back? there wasnt anything there to begin with haha I will double check the trigger wires later today to eliminate that possibility. after thinking about it I think I just have an intake leak from the recirculation system. I blocked off the 1/8 fittings for cylinder 1 and the carb pulled vacuum. Cylinder 2 and 3 have the recirc hoses attached but theres no check valves, so the vacuum may just be pulling air from the exhaust?

You didn't mention the choke or primer?
What system do you have?
The primer can leak and cause a no start situation??
Not using the choke you won't get the enriched air/fuel needed to start.

The choke works just fine. But after thinking about it I think I just have an intake leak from the recirculation system. I blocked off the 1/8 fittings for cylinder 1 and the carb pulled vacuum. Cylinder 2 and 3 have the recirc hoses attached but theres no check valves, so the vacuum may just be pulling air from the exhaust?

You figured wrong, put them back!
The older style bock HAS a circulation-system in the shape of a dog-bone.
I suggest go over the wiring again, perhaps you set-up the trigger-wires wrong??

 

[Matthewg94]

You figured wrong, put them back!
The older style bock HAS a circulation-system in the shape of a dog-bone.
I suggest go over the wiring again, perhaps you set-up the trigger-wires wrong??

so I checked the trigger wires, they're all where they are supposed to be. I'm taking your advice on getting the recirc system back to how it is supposed to be. All the check valves were bad, so I ordered some new ones along with OEM vacuum line. and about the dog bone shaped one...I looked at my old '89 block and after I took the cover off of it, there were passages to each of the cylinders. I checked my new 90hp block and those passages are seemingly blocked off. anyways I cleaned it up and put on new gaskets. Then I realized I forgot to put the lower crankshaft seal on during the rebuild. so I will be removing the powerhead again to get that on there, along with the new check valves and I'm HOPING that will be what it needs to fire up.

 

[Matthewg94]

Maybe this helps

awesome! looks like the 91E Thru 92C is the setup I have. That helps tremendously thank you!

 

[The Force power]

I'm taking your advice on getting the recirc system back to how it is supposed to be. All the check valves were bad, so I ordered some new ones along with OEM vacuum line. and about the dog bone shaped one...I looked at my old '89 block and after I took the cover off of it, there were passages to each of the cylinders. I checked my new 90hp block and those passages are seemingly blocked off. anyways I cleaned it up and put on new gaskets. Then I realized I forgot to put the lower crankshaft seal on during the rebuild. so I will be removing the powerhead again to get that on there, along with the new check valves and I'm HOPING that will be what it needs to fire up.

When you put the crank in, did make sure that the crank-seals between the cylinders are placed properly before bolting it together?
what type of sealer did you use between the two halves?
Maybe a picture of you (new) block will shed some info on what version of block you're working.

 

[The Force power]

Other than that I have one unaccounted for fitting, right on the bottom of the reed plate.

IF... this is the port I'm thinking it is, then that port is blocked WHEN a choke-solenoid/plunger style choke is used. with a fuel-enricher system a hose would hooked to that

 

[Matthewg94]

based on the parts diagrams, I see one seal right above the lower main bearing on the crankshaft. I dont recall ever seeing them upon removal though. unless the old one is still there. as for the lower main seal, I know for a fact I forgot to put that one on. Which is going to be the next thing I do. I've always used permatex ultra black on crankcases. As for the block, it seems to be a 91E to 92C, if that info helps.

When you put the crank in, did make sure that the crank-seals between the cylinders are placed properly before bolting it together?
what type of sealer did you use between the two halves?
Maybe a picture of you (new) block will shed some info on what version of block you're working.

I don't recall ever removing any kind of seals on the crankshaft between the cylinders, but I did see 2 of them on a parts diagram for the crankshaft. The picture was very vague on where they went, and it doesn't seem that my gasket kit came with any..and I always use permatex ultra black on crankcases. The block seems to be the 91c thru 92E model. I can take a picture of it later. The only thing I know i didn't install is the lower main seal, which I'm going to be removing the powerhead again to get that on.

Here's a pic of the seals I found, do you know where they're supposed to go?

 

[Matthewg94]

IF... this is the port I'm thinking it is, then that port is blocked WHEN a choke-solenoid/plunger style choke is used. with a fuel-enricher system a hose would hooked to that

You can see the one im talking about at the bottom here, sorry I should have said the intake manifold. And I do have the plunger style choke solenoid

 

[Matthewg94]

When you put the crank in, did make sure that the crank-seals between the cylinders are placed properly before bolting it together?
what type of sealer did you use between the two halves?
Maybe a picture of you (new) block will shed some info on what version of block you're working

 

[pnwboat]

The seal pictured in post number 10 is the crankcase seals for each cylinder. They go on the crankshaft. Very easy to break if you're not careful. You need two of them. The purpose of this seal is to isolate the crankcase for each cylinder from each other so the crankcase chamber for each cylinder can pressurize on the down stroke of the piston to force the fuel/air mixture into the combustion chamber. Without these seals, the motor will not pump the fuel/air mixture into the combustion chamber. The motor will not run.

 

[Matthewg94]

The seal pictured in post number 10 is the crankcase seals for each cylinder. They go on the crankshaft. Very easy to break if you're not careful. You need two of them. The purpose of this seal is to isolate the crankcase for each cylinder from each other so the crankcase chamber for each cylinder can pressurize on the down stroke of the piston to force the fuel/air mixture into the combustion chamber. Without these seals, the motor will not pump the fuel/air mixture into the combustion chamber. The motor will not run.

That must be my problem then, it all adds up. welp guess I'm cracking the cases again haha I just ordered a couple of em. Is it pretty self explanatory on the placement once I get the crankshaft out? Can't seem to find any info on the install

 

[jerryjerry05]

The fitting on the bottom of the reed plate is for a hose from the plenum or carb cover .

 

[racerone]

Only use Loctite 518 on crankcase halves.----Block halves MUST be a metal to metal fit.----Certain sealers will not squeeze out properly.

 

[The Force power]

That must be my problem then, it all adds up. welp guess I'm cracking the cases again haha I just ordered a couple of em. Is it pretty self explanatory on the placement once I get the crankshaft out? Can't seem to find any info on the install

As mentioned before; be very very careful installing them, they break easily!!
also when ready to place the half make sure the openings are turned down so you know they're seated right.

 

[Matthewg94]

Only use Loctite 518 on crankcase halves.----Block halves MUST be a metal to metal fit.----Certain sealers will not squeeze out properly.

Roger that, I will pick some up when I get ready to seal the case. Thanks!

 

[Matthewg94]

As mentioned before; be very very careful installing them, they break easily!!
also when ready to place the half make sure the openings are turned down so you know they're seated right.

Will do, thanks! I will update when I get it put back together within the next couple of days

 

[Matthewg94]

As mentioned before; be very very careful installing them, they break easily!!
also when ready to place the half make sure the openings are turned down so you know they're seated right.

Went for a lake test today and it went beautifully. Got the seals installed easily and carefully, and it worked like a charm! Thanks for the help, I never would have figured that out! Also I used the loctite 518 to reseal it this time as racerone said. Awesome