7/3 update - OVERHEATING....1994 Yamaha 225 saltwater series 76?

[BadCompany]

Hi

I just rebuilt the power head on my 1994 Yamaha 225 saltwater series 76? outboard. Before running the motor I was told to run it rich so have about 50:1 in the tank and the oil injection system hooked up also. We had the motor running for a little while but then crapped out from all the smoke.

We cleaned the plugs and got it running again but the motor was definitely running way to rich it was smoking like crazy and there was oil dripping from the prop. So we removed the injection system and had the motor running again for 15 minutes.

Yesterday when I went to put the boat in the water for a sea trial the motor started up with choke and a little throttle, it then idled down after a minute or so then sputtered out. I restarted it and it then did the same thing when I put some throttle to it.

I removed the plugs and put in cleaner used plugs but now it wont start. I've tried putting the oil injection system back, on draining the carb bowls, emptying the fuel filter and inspecting it, cleaning the plugs again but I still have no luck.

When I remove the plugs there seems to be fuel on them and the head of the piston is wet when you look in the cylinder.

Is there any chance that these plugs have just had it and are no good or could I have smoked out the cylinders from it running way too rich.

I also removed all of the plugs and cranked it over trying to blow out whatever extra oil that was in there but nothing seems to be working.

If there is anyone with any input or ideas it would be much appreciated to get some help.

Thanks

 

[BadCompany]

Re: 1994 saltwater series 76 deg

Re: 1994 saltwater series 76 deg

UPDATED TO ADD:

By some stroke of fate, after sitting overnight, the engine started.

After running a few minutes I heard the over heating alarm going off so i immediatly turned off the motor. While the motor was running i noticed that the flow of water coming out of the pisser wasnt that strong last year it wasnt that strong either but this time it was pretty weak. I removed the thermostats that were replaced last year. The thermostats were open there was a decent amount of steam coming out and extreamly hot to the touch. Last year I also replaced the water pump and the over heating sensors because I'm pretty sure one was faulty. Im not to sure what this could be so if youve got any ideas i would greatly appreciate your help. Thanks Kyle

 

[rodbolt]

Re: HELP....1994 Yamaha 225 saltwater series 76?

Re: HELP....1994 Yamaha 225 saltwater series 76?

rebuilt means all kinds of things to all kinds of folks.
I suspect your was patched not actually rebuilt.
when you premixed your fuel how did you do it? I want step by step details.
on the low speed overheat, if the engine was ever started,even for 30 seconds ,dry I would carefully inspect the water pump and housing, also check the pressure control valve grommet, its normally part of the rebuild but not all rebuilders/patchers do it.
check your fuel pump diaphrams, check each carb throat for flooding with the air box off, pump up the primer bulb, it should pump up and remain firm, if any one of the 6 needle valves or any of the 3 fuel pumps leak it will get squishy in your hand and you will hear the fuel flowing.
were the carbs rebuilt at overhaual.
is the emergency primer lever in the correct position?
gotta have information, its one of the more complex carbed motors yamaha ever built and half the yamaha techs mess it up.

 

[BadCompany]

Re: HELP....1994 Yamaha 225 saltwater series 76?

Re: HELP....1994 Yamaha 225 saltwater series 76?

Rebuilt in this case was sending the head out to the machine shop to be re-bored, and then installing new pistons etc that came in the Yamaha rebuild kit. (pistons, bearing etc)

Did not rebuild the carbs.

Primer bulb is FIRM not squishy.

The pre-mix method: As per the instr from the place where the KIT was purchased (local merchant in Waterford, CT) Used 50:1 with the gas in the tank and let the oil on boat mix in also.

That merchant also advised that they would recommend (to all person's buying their rebuilt motors) to disconnect the onboard oil and ALWAYS PREMIX WHEN FUELING THE BOAT. The boat is a 1994 Stratos 2250 walk-around w/a 96 gal fuel tank.

As of this afternoon, the engine would not start - and after repeated fiddling around and re-trying, now the batteries are on the charger as they've been drained.

Have printed what you wrote and will be checking the water pump etc.
Will get back. THANKS FOR YOUR TIME.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: HELP....1994 Yamaha 225 saltwater series 76?

Re: HELP....1994 Yamaha 225 saltwater series 76?

one of us is having difficulty with the english language here
I asked specifics,step by step, how did you premix the fuel in the hull tank.
you replied 50/1.
not close to what I asked.
as yamaha offers no rebuild kits I can assume ya went cheap.
as yamaha has about the most reliable oil injection system on the market I can also assume the parts seller is simply CLUELESS.
next time your in there look for the fuel and electrical certifications on the wall at a minimum, a master tech cert would be more reassuring
your first mistake was not idendifying why the fist power head blew, burned pistons are ALWAYS a symptom not a problem.
I dont mind helping you but I am not sure I can.
reading comprehension is imperative, I dont mind spelling mistakes, my keyboard makes them all the time.
but to rebuild a powerhead without doing carbs,fuel pumps, water pump, T-stats, pressure control valve, testing the plug caps and a few other checks is insane at best.

Albert Einstien once said, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing the same way twice and expecting a different result.

but first I want to know, how much fuel was in the tank when it blew,
second I want minute details of how the 50/1 mix in the tank was done.
how did you add the oil to the gas in the tank?

 

[BadCompany]

Re: HELP....1994 Yamaha 225 saltwater series 76?

Re: HELP....1994 Yamaha 225 saltwater series 76?

Have just printed the above and will have son write DETAILED info
tomorrow.

Thanks

 

[rodbolt]

Re: HELP....1994 Yamaha 225 saltwater series 76?

Re: HELP....1994 Yamaha 225 saltwater series 76?

good
I dont wish to sound mean or anything, however I am a professional tech and typo writer.
but certain information I gotta have so I can bring about 30 years of making and observing mistakes being made to bear.
it may be that we have to strip the powerhead of the fuel system parts and start again.
but I would like to know if any diagnosis of why the first powerhead popped and which cylinder lost the piston.

 

[parrfive]

Re: HELP....1994 Yamaha 225 saltwater series 76?

Re: HELP....1994 Yamaha 225 saltwater series 76?

Well looks like im not the only one that thinks rodbolt is a jerk. My guess is he's not alluded to talk to costumer where he works. If you want help without someone making you feel cheep or stupid P.M. ill give you my shop number and will be glad to walk you through it.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: HELP....1994 Yamaha 225 saltwater series 76?

Re: HELP....1994 Yamaha 225 saltwater series 76?

poor parrfive, I did ask what year he passed his Yamaha master tech test, never got an answer, maybe he failed and is embarressed?
the reason I asked about the premixing is simple, maybe parrfive doesnt know or never seen it.
problem with premixing large volumes of gas thats remining in the tank is you have to dilute the oil with several gallons of gas before adding it to the tank.
had one customer that added 1 1/2 gallons of oil to about 75 gallons in the tank by simply dumping it down the fuel fill, the oil sat like a turd in a punch bowl until it hit the fuel draw tube. then the fuel pump picked up pure oil and fed it to the VST and the engine got incredibly smoky and quit running until we drained the system and properly mixed the fuel/oil and cleaned everything.
like I say I can help you but we may have to back up and try again.
and yes, I talk to folks everyday, usually to much
I am sorry parrfive is mad cause I corrected some statements and posted what Yamaha reccomends instead of what parrfive did. for that I apologize.
however I stand with what Yamaha says not another dealership.

 

[parrfive]

Re: HELP....1994 Yamaha 225 saltwater series 76?

Re: HELP....1994 Yamaha 225 saltwater series 76?

I haven?t yet taken the master tech test because I only have four modules. Maybe someday ill have the time to get the rest and test. Quoting directly out of a Yamaha manual is fine when you?re talking to a tech but I feel when it comes to someone that has limited knowledge about outboard motors witch im sure you?ll agree is about 95 percent of the boating population I prefer a different approach. I try to help them try some things that you or Tony terry may not agree with but have worked very well for me in the past. As you know 95 percent of all motor problems a simple one?s. Those are the ones I feel like I can help a lot of these folks with. That?s all im trying to do.

 

[BadCompany]

UPDATED......Re: HELP....1994 Yamaha 225 saltwater series 76?

UPDATED......Re: HELP....1994 Yamaha 225 saltwater series 76?

Whoa Nelly! All beyond this Mama!

Hi "rodbolt" ~

FOR NOW - it looks like starting problem is solved. A set of "new eyes" looked at the motor after work yesterday to tackle the "no-start" -- it was cranking but not catching. He found it to be a dilemma w/ the piece beneath the flywheel being installed upside down (I don't recall what DS called it) - it pinched/chafed wires. Repaired wires reinstalled flywheel parts correctly and VOILA - it started immediately!

The water pump was new last summer as well as the thermostats.

The reason the engine blew last fall - lack of oil!!!!!!!! I forgot to ask which piston it was, but as I type - it's a paperweight on the desk and it is TOASTED. Lesson learned the hard way!!

As for the ? about the KIT - to rebuild the powerhead. After reboring the head, ($550.) the kit he bought from a local marina ($1660) contained:

• HIGH-PERFORMANCE WISECO PISTONS/ RINGS/ WRISTPINS/ RETAINERS.
• COMPLETE GASKET & SEAL KIT.
• CRANKSHAFT MAIN BEARINGS
• CONNECTING ROD LARGE & SMALL END BEARINGS.
• CONNECTING ROD BOLTS
• CRANKSHAFT SEAL RINGS ON FORCE/MERCURY PRODUCTS WHERE NEEDED
• GASKET SEALING COMPOUNDS AND CRANKCASE SEALER.

As for the "premixing" method he used: Onboard = 96 gal tank - popped the sending unit out and eyeballed the inside tank to verify the "half-tank" added oil accordingly for the 50:1 mix and added more gas/oil (20 gallons more of gas). So with the new gas flowing into the tank and the SLOSHING around on the trailer to the marina - they called it "mixed".

After reading what you have written about the premixing and the onboard oil mixing unit (my laymans term) HE WILL BE USING THE ONBOARD METHOD.


I think that about covers it -- for now. Sea trials after work tonight - providing the weather holds and the T-storms steer clear.

This is DS (22 y/o) first boat, and he is "learning" along the way. THIS MAMA THANKS YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME/INPUT here, and I for one put stock in the Yamaha way.

I am finding this entire forum to be MOST INFORMATIVE!

 

[parrfive]

Re: UPDATED.....HELP....1994 Yamaha 225 saltwater series 76?

Re: UPDATED.....HELP....1994 Yamaha 225 saltwater series 76?

Like i said something simple.

 

[BadCompany]

Re: UPDATED.....HELP....1994 Yamaha 225 saltwater series 76?

Re: UPDATED.....HELP....1994 Yamaha 225 saltwater series 76?

gotta luv it~

 

[rodbolt]

Re: UPDATE...started!!!....1994 Yamaha 225 saltwater series 76?

Re: UPDATE...started!!!....1994 Yamaha 225 saltwater series 76?

ok,
with the wiesco pistons its imperative the machinest gave it about .0015-.002 extra oversize from the standard oversize. if not pistons seieze again due to the thermal exp[ansion characteristics of forged pistons.
your breakin period and method will now change, contact wiesco.
Yamaha doesnt sell any kits for rebuilds and they are rarely needed.
I doubt your engine suffered an oil related failure as that normally takes out the crank.
but, if it was in fact an oil related failure what steps were taken at the rebuild to correct the lack of oil? did the inline oil check valves get tested?
did the oil pump output get tested as per the service manual? PS, I can tell you an easier way than the manual. did the oil level switch in the engine tank get tested?
the 3.1L motors of that year had an issue with the switch, failure will allow the engine oil tank to be run dry with no alarms.

who told you it was an oiling system failure?

the reason I was asking which piston failed is a stuck open T-stat on the stbd bank can run #6 carb fuel bowl dry causing #6 to lean burn.

like I say, I try not to get snippy but when I ask a question I am fishing for a reason.
the wiesco thing with the extra clearence, seen it to many times, its also why I dont use wiesco.
the check valve thing? seen it, thats why I always test them.
theT-stat thing seen that a few times, always do the maint at regular intravals as per the maint schedule in the manual.
same as pulling the engine oil tank filter and sender, ALWAYS drain the engine oil tank first via the water trap, then remove the sender screen assy, then RETRIEVE the screen to tank seal,ALWAYS replace it with new.
there are reasons for the above, fail to follow it and you may see what an actual oil failure looks like.
the pistons, as long as the air fuel mix is correct, can actually tolerate running with no oil a lot longer than the crank bearings can.
on the engine oil tank sender, the rubber piece,looks like a 4 leaf clover, can curl up and prevent the switch float from being able to fall far enough to trigger the alarm.
happens.
a quick test you ask?
simply drain the engine tank via the water trap(small vynil tube), make sure the remote is at least 1/2 full.
turn the key to on.
you should now have 3 bars flashing an audible and oil transfer.
it will transfer that way for 180 seconds, in that time it should nearly refill the tank. if it does not check the remote tank filter.
but we really really need to know specifically why the first piston failed or most likly the second will as well.
burned pistons are a symptom not a problem.

 

[scottcmb]

Re: UPDATE...started!!!....1994 Yamaha 225 saltwater series 76?

Re: UPDATE...started!!!....1994 Yamaha 225 saltwater series 76?

says alot for regular PREVENTATIVE maintainance from bow to stern..

 

[BadCompany]

Re: UPDATE...started!!!....1994 Yamaha 225 saltwater series 76?

Re: UPDATE...started!!!....1994 Yamaha 225 saltwater series 76?

Hmmmm - not that I've a clue, but interesting, as I feel there is "something more" going on here. Again, I've printed it out for DS to review tonight.

By lack of oil, I meant NONE in the tank to send to MIX (he did not check the oil before heading out, and they had run around for hours - probably didn't check it the time before when he was out either.

At last night's trial, DS said that the boat ran fine til over mid- 3000/s rpm, then it would conk out - but easily restart. So naturally, their remedy was to just ran around for a while at a slower speed. grrrrrrr.

Until the engine blew last fall, it was running pretty good for DS. I'll ask tonight which piston blew.

Stay tuned (lol)!

 

[hankll]

Re: UPDATE...started!!!....1994 Yamaha 225 saltwater series 76?

Re: UPDATE...started!!!....1994 Yamaha 225 saltwater series 76?

Rodbolt, This series of posts is why I hang around Iboats forums. I learn, and laughed to myself when you described what happens when you add 50:1 mix in on board fuel tank by just dumping oil down the gas fill inlet.. As described thats what I did and thats what my Suzuki did, it belched smoke, then died and I had to pump the fuel primer bulb into a jug until it quit pumping all the oil and I got gas again, and then all the carb bowls had to come off, and spray cleaner in and around carbs, clean all the spark plugs, then button it up and re-fired with what looked like the local municipality spraying for mosquitoes - so bad that the neighbor came over to see if I had a fire. LOL - Now I know from your description, how to do it right....

 

[hankll]

Re: UPDATE...started!!!....1994 Yamaha 225 saltwater series 76?

Re: UPDATE...started!!!....1994 Yamaha 225 saltwater series 76?

In fact if you look at my Avatar pic, you can see the heavy exhaust smoke, as this pic was taken at our maiden launch after the oil mixture was finally mixed in with gas in the tank and the oil pump system was pumping oil, too.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: UPDATE...started!!!....1994 Yamaha 225 saltwater series 76?

Re: UPDATE...started!!!....1994 Yamaha 225 saltwater series 76?

badcompany
now we are getting somewhere
have son drain the engine oil tank, remove the engine oil tank screen and sender, remove the screen from the sender, carefully inspect the four rubber feet on the bottom of the float switch for curling up, actually its part of the 200 hour OR annual inspection.
hiowever to run it completly dry means the alarm system was NOT operable, normal cause is the float switch centering feet(four little rubber tits)
like I posted before, a quick test of the system is to simply drain the engine oil tank via the water trap, reinstall the trap.
insure the remote tank is 1/2 full or better.
turn the key on.
now you MUST have an audible alarm, the flashing bars or arrow(depends on tach) and oil transfer for 180 seconds with engine tank at least 2/3rds full at the end of the 180 second transfer.
if not QUIT running it until its fixed.
but QUIT running it now until its fixed or your GOING to post about a repeat engine failure.
that we dont want.
were the carbs rebuilt at overhaul? were the fuel pumps replaced?
there is a reason for the conk out, its normally fuel getting lean.
lean A/F mix is the leading cause of piston failure.

 

[BadCompany]

Re: UPDATE...started!!!....1994 Yamaha 225 saltwater series 76?

Re: UPDATE...started!!!....1994 Yamaha 225 saltwater series 76?

All dependent on the weather - they will check these things tonight