5.0 Mercruiser Problems

achris

More fish than mountain goat
Joined
May 19, 2004
Messages
27,468
Here's a video that will help you picture it...

 

dubs283

Vice Admiral
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
5,322
I'd not heard the term overlap stroke before. Thank you for clarifying.
Yes, maybe a little esoteric for the diy'er..

More commonly the four "strokes" are called intake, compression, power and exhaust. Piston will be TDC at the end of compression (when you want the plug to fire) and exhaust (no fire).

Sometimes when a distributor is reinstalled the operator places number one on the exhaust stroke. This is known as being "180 degrees off" and the engine will not run, only try to start, spit fuel and possibly backfire
 

dsull

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Jun 4, 2022
Messages
32
The engine has been running and, from my non professional ear, sounds nice and smooth. It has just been lacking power and not accelerating past ~2400 RPMs when taking off. It also has been trying to remain cranked even when the switch is turned off and will still turn over a few times before it dies when I turn off the key. I thought checking the timing would be another item I could cross off my list. The top of the motor says "Engine timing 10* BTDC - Special engine timing required" but, after lining up the 10* mark on the pulley, the motor sounds worse, to me.
 

dsull

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Jun 4, 2022
Messages
32
Also, just to clarify, I've not replaced the actual distributor, only the cap and rotor. I marked the rotor and replaced the new one in the same location.

I also pulled one of the new plugs today and it was carbon covered which tells me it's running rich. I'm assuming adjusting the air/fuel mixture will help make the motor sound smoother now that I've set the timing. I just wish I had confidence the timing was set correctly.
 

nola mike

Vice Admiral
Joined
Apr 22, 2009
Messages
5,369
Did you verify the firing order and that your #1 plug is actually #1 as suggested?
Adjusting your idle mix screws (which it sounds like what you're talking about) might improve your idle, but won't do anything for your top end. A malfunctioning TKS will make it rich at all speeds, I'd want to be certain that it's operating as it's supposed to. As mentioned, it would be real difficult for your timing to be off by as much as it was with the plug wires in the right location.
Also, that v8 is pretty smooth and can sound great even when something is far off
 

dsull

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Jun 4, 2022
Messages
32
Did you verify the firing order and that your #1 plug is actually #1 as suggested?
Adjusting your idle mix screws (which it sounds like what you're talking about) might improve your idle, but won't do anything for your top end. A malfunctioning TKS will make it rich at all speeds, I'd want to be certain that it's operating as it's supposed to. As mentioned, it would be real difficult for your timing to be off by as much as it was with the plug wires in the right location.
Also, that v8 is pretty smooth and can sound great even when something is far off
I have not yet verified. I didn't have a ton of time to fool with it before work this morning - I have just been meaning to pull a plug since I replaced them. TKS has come up before as a suggestion and I've read about it but I'm still not sure the best way to test it's working correctly. I don't hear the whistling noise it says I'm supposed to hear for 6-10 minutes on the first start of the day, at all.
 

dsull

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Jun 4, 2022
Messages
32
I can buy a whole new mercarb for the same price as a new TKS solenoid 🤦🤦🤦
 

dsull

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Jun 4, 2022
Messages
32
Day 2 of fooling with timing... I pulled the plug in the #1 cylinder and verified that when it is TDC on compression stroke that the rotor is pointing to the #1 plug wire and that the firing order is correct. I've also been able to get the engine to 10* BTDC while in base timing mode... HOWEVER when I remove my ground wire on the purple/white wire, the timing is not advancing very much and seems to be jumping around a bit. I believe someone mentioned it should be at 30* BTDC when advanced. It's nowhere near that... I've also been using my multimeter to ensure the purple/white wire is grounded as it goes into the PCM. I've been doing this by connecting my positive lead on my multimeter to the battery and using my black lead on the purple/white wire. When I do this with my ground wire removed, I'm still getting a voltage reading. I'm not the most adept at using a multimeter but it's showing 4.5v. Should it be zero? It seems like the timing is not being advanced far enough but I'm unsure what would cause that.
 

Rick Stephens

Admiral
Joined
Aug 13, 2013
Messages
6,118
Timing advances when the motor is up over 2000 RPM. Only good way to check how much is to use an advance timing light. They don't cost much and worth a pretty penny when you need one.
 

achris

More fish than mountain goat
Joined
May 19, 2004
Messages
27,468
Day 2 of fooling with timing... I pulled the plug in the #1 cylinder and verified that when it is TDC on compression stroke that the rotor is pointing to the #1 plug wire and that the firing order is correct. I've also been able to get the engine to 10* BTDC while in base timing mode... HOWEVER when I remove my ground wire on the purple/white wire, the timing is not advancing very much and seems to be jumping around a bit. I believe someone mentioned it should be at 30* BTDC when advanced. It's nowhere near that... I've also been using my multimeter to ensure the purple/white wire is grounded as it goes into the PCM. I've been doing this by connecting my positive lead on my multimeter to the battery and using my black lead on the purple/white wire. When I do this with my ground wire removed, I'm still getting a voltage reading. I'm not the most adept at using a multimeter but it's showing 4.5v. Should it be zero? It seems like the timing is not being advanced far enough but I'm unsure what would cause that.
The purple/white wire is actually the wire for a knock sensor. If your engine doesn't have a knock sensor, it's only connected to the ignition module.

A knock sensor is (usually) a piece of crystal cut to a specific frequency (the frequency produced by your engine during a knock event, detonation). The crystal is a piezoelectric, and produces a voltage when it's hit with that frequency. Much like the transducer of your echo sounder.

When the module sees a voltage on that wire it knows a knock event was detected and will adjust the timing according to it's programming and the engine revs. However, when there's no knock sensor, the voltage on that wire just floats, there's nothing valid in knowing the voltage on it.

When the module sees the purple/white at ground, its programming tells it to drop all the 'features' of the TB-V, and just be a dumb brick. That's when you set the base timing. The features that are disabled include an idle speed control. If the idle speed drops below (I think) 500RPM, the module will advance the timing in an attempt to bring the revs back up. That's the last thing you need when trying to set timing, the module messing the timing around, I think you'd agree.

The TB-V module has lots of cool tricks that make it a really great unit, and rather than try to detail them all here, I've attached a page I extracted out of one of the manuals that explain them all.

Chris....
 

Attachments

  • TB-V features.pdf
    15.2 KB · Views: 4

dsull

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Jun 4, 2022
Messages
32
The purple/white wire is actually the wire for a knock sensor. If your engine doesn't have a knock sensor, it's only connected to the ignition module.

A knock sensor is (usually) a piece of crystal cut to a specific frequency (the frequency produced by your engine during a knock event, detonation). The crystal is a piezoelectric, and produces a voltage when it's hit with that frequency. Much like the transducer of your echo sounder.

When the module sees a voltage on that wire it knows a knock event was detected and will adjust the timing according to it's programming and the engine revs. However, when there's no knock sensor, the voltage on that wire just floats, there's nothing valid in knowing the voltage on it.

When the module sees the purple/white at ground, its programming tells it to drop all the 'features' of the TB-V, and just be a dumb brick. That's when you set the base timing. The features that are disabled include an idle speed control. If the idle speed drops below (I think) 500RPM, the module will advance the timing in an attempt to bring the revs back up. That's the last thing you need when trying to set timing, the module messing the timing around, I think you'd agree.

The TB-V module has lots of cool tricks that make it a really great unit, and rather than try to detail them all here, I've attached a page I extracted out of one of the manuals that explain them all.

Chris....
Chris, thanks for that info. From your description there, it sounds like it shouldn't be concerning to me that the timing is not being advanced much when I remove the ground form the purple/white wire. This seems opposite of what I've read elsewhere about the timing being advanced when the wire is not grounded. It sounds like the TBV ignition will move the timing around in the best way it see fit to keep engine idle optimum, etc. Is this the correct interpretation? Would you expect to see the timing advance without the wire grounded? Thanks for the help.
 

achris

More fish than mountain goat
Joined
May 19, 2004
Messages
27,468
Chris, thanks for that info. From your description there, it sounds like it shouldn't be concerning to me that the timing is not being advanced much when I remove the ground form the purple/white wire. This seems opposite of what I've read elsewhere about the timing being advanced when the wire is not grounded.
Yep, lots of bad information 'out there'... Unfortunately it can be difficult to differentiate between good and bad.
It sounds like the TBV ignition will move the timing around in the best way it see fit to keep engine idle optimum, etc. Is this the correct interpretation?
Pretty much spot on.
Would you expect to see the timing advance without the wire grounded?
At idle? Not necessarily. It depends entirely on what the engine speed is and how TB-V is interpreting what's going on...

Basically as long as the timing is set correctly in base mode and everything else is operating properly the timing may or may not jump around a bit...

Chris...
 

dsull

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Jun 4, 2022
Messages
32
Yep, lots of bad information 'out there'... Unfortunately it can be difficult to differentiate between good and bad.

Pretty much spot on.

At idle? Not necessarily. It depends entirely on what the engine speed is and how TB-V is interpreting what's going on...

Basically as long as the timing is set correctly in base mode and everything else is operating properly the timing may or may not jump around a bit...

Chris...
Well, I'm not sure if this is good or bad. Sounds like the ignition control module may be fine so setting base timing to 10* BTDC should be sufficient. Motor just doesn't sound good and I'm having to run the idle speed screw all the way in to keep RPMs at 650. The only other thing I know to do is adjust the mixture and I'm not sure it's even a problem. Kinda at a loss what to look at next...
 

nola mike

Vice Admiral
Joined
Apr 22, 2009
Messages
5,369
. The only other thing I know to do is adjust the mixture and I'm not sure it's even a problem. Kinda at a loss what to look at next...
That's a big deal for idle running. Everything affects everything...
 

dsull

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Jun 4, 2022
Messages
32
That's a big deal for idle running. Everything affects everything...
True. I'll try to get it back to factory setting and then adjust on the water with the motor in gear. I've read factory setting is to back out 1.25 turns from all the way in. Maybe that's the last missing piece. I know the motor is running rich because the new plugs are already black on the tips. There's got to be something causing the lack of power under load.
 

achris

More fish than mountain goat
Joined
May 19, 2004
Messages
27,468
Well, I'm not sure if this is good or bad. Sounds like the ignition control module may be fine so setting base timing to 10* BTDC should be sufficient. Motor just doesn't sound good and I'm having to run the idle speed screw all the way in to keep RPMs at 650. The only other thing I know to do is adjust the mixture and I'm not sure it's even a problem. Kinda at a loss what to look at next...
Silly question but I have to ask. Are you sure you're setting to 10 degrees BEFORE and not 10 degrees after?

Chris...
 
Top