40hp Dead Top Cylinder

mebehoof

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A valuable lesson I have learned on here over the years is Racers knowledge is worth its weight in gold. If you want his help you need to answer the questions with findings and or results and not more questions. I could go into a rabbit hole trying to explain what I mean but in a nut shell if you do the leg work so you can answer the questions you will get the results your looking for.
Best
tphoyt, I get it and do appreciate the effort and thought sharing info means. I sought out this forum and look forward to sharing as time goes on. Hopefully whatever I have to do to fix this 40hp Johnson will help some other person deal with a similar issue. Thanks for the post, mebehoof
 

Lpgc

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I'm watching this thread, will be interested to know what the problem was. Have rebuilt a couple of 2 stroke outboard motors but I'm no 2 stroke expert. One of the 2 strokes I rebuilt was a 1982 70hp 3 cylinder Mercury (cylinder head is part of block casting and can't be removed), put new pistons in that (pita putting them in from the crank side), then it ran OK for a while but suddenly had the same symptoms as your engine that I never got to the bottom of.

Now after reading others posts on this thread I think maybe the problem with my Mercury 70 was a reed valve, crankcase leak or top seal. I don't know how pulling the head might help reveal the problem but if 2 stroke experts said that was a good idea that's what I'd be doing... as long as they were willing to re-engage and talk me through diagnosis after pulling the head, otherwise after checking the inlet and exhaust ports seemed to look the same on both cylinders I wouldn't know what other checks I could do that could tell me something the compression test hadn't already provided critical information about. It would be nice to know the reason for pulling the head before doing it but if experts didn't want to explain each step in their thought process I'd be happy to go along with what they said anyway, doesn't seem a lot of work to pull the head off the 2stroke.
 
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mebehoof

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I'm watching this thread, will be interested to know what the problem was. Have rebuilt a couple of 2 stroke outboard motors but I'm no 2 stroke expert. One of the 2 strokes I rebuilt was a 1982 70hp 3 cylinder Mercury (cylinder head is part of block casting and can't be removed), put new pistons in that (pita putting them in from the crank side), then it ran OK for a while but suddenly had the same symptoms as your engine that I never got to the bottom of.

Now after reading others posts on this thread I think maybe the problem with my Mercury 70 was a reed valve, crankcase leak or top seal. I don't know how pulling the head might help reveal the problem but if 2 stroke experts said that was a good idea that's what I'd be doing... as long as they were willing to re-engage and talk me through diagnosis after pulling the head, otherwise after checking the inlet and exhaust ports seemed to look the same on both cylinders I wouldn't know what other checks I could do that could tell me something the compression test hadn't already provided critical information about. It would be nice to know the reason for pulling the head before doing it but if experts didn't want to explain each step in their thought process I'd be happy to go along with what they said anyway, doesn't seem a lot of work to pull the head off the 2stroke.
I'll be tearing into it later this afternoon. Also curious why pulling the head is what seems to be the first option in this diagnosis? Regardless, based on the input from the good people that took the time to post (such as yourself) I'm going to follow their lead and see where it takes me. FYI my biggest question is whether it's electrical or mechanical??? I'm like the new student when it comes to things 2 stroke. So, as I progress I'll be posting any and all results. mebehoof
 

cyclops222

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Is it possible that the reed valve assembly on that cylinder is installed BACKWARD ? It would block faster airflow. But allow enough crankcase air for a good compression reading ? Possible?
 

racerone

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I doubt that reed valves can be installed backwards.-----Or should I say impossible !!!
 

Crosbyman

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Is it possible that the reed valve assembly on that cylinder is installed BACKWARD ? It would block faster airflow. But allow enough crankcase air for a good compression reading ? Possible?
reeds do not contribute to loss or increase of compression
 

cyclops222

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Why are Reed Assemblies installed in most 2 stroke outboard motors ?
Do a Web search of that complete statement.
 
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cyclops222

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Then why are they put in 2 stroke engines ?
Why are they called Reed Valves ? Valves left open in a 4 stroke would cause a problem. Why would broken / defective Reed Valves not cause a problem ?
 

saltchuckmatt

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Affects internal compression...forcing fuel in and out of the combustion chamber from the crankcase.
 

racerone

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The 2 stroke engine is a simple 2 stage air processing machine !----Air is pulled into the crankcase through reed valves ( a check valve ) and compressed in the crankcase.-----Then transferred to the cylinder.----When exhaust ports close compression in the cylinder starts.----Reed valve is no where in the picture when cylinder compression starts in this 2 stroke.-----Time for some folks to learn the simple basics.----And to recognize that some on here do know how Johnson outboards work !
 

cyclops222

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Can we all read post # 11 again ? His first sentence is critical that there is no suction available. No suction in is no fuel drawn into the combustion chamber. As racerone stated. Compression should be about 140 # Both cylinders are way down. The top cylinder being the lowest compression.
 

Crosbyman

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bad reeds or not no /low suction means air is entering from a source other than the carb...

 

racerone

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I read post #1 and read many posts.-----It seems the simplicity of a 2 stroke and trouble shooting of them is not well understood !
 

mebehoof

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"Very little Suction"... Was Fuel getting sprayed back on your Hand when you covered the Carb?
Are the Oil Streaks on the Block, along the Crankcase Seam, or coming down from under the Flywheel?
jimmbo,

OK, here goes...
First, I was wrong about suction on top carb, it is about equal to bottom carb. Still has spark from both coils and plugs are firing. Fuel is available and I have spritzed raw mix-fuel in top carb with no change in RPM.

The oil streaks are on the lower housing on the right side but I think they came from residue oil mixed with leaked gas from the bad primer solenoid?

I just pulled the carbs off and am looking at the reeds with a flashlight and they look pristine top and bottom. Had to stop due to yet another downpour here in Eastern Thumb Area of Michigan right near the St Clair River and the bottom of Lake Huron.

Was going to pull the reeds out for inspection but rained out for however long.

Like I said the reeds look immaculate on the side I can see do you have any thoughts on this?

mebehoof
 
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mebehoof

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Can we all read post # 11 again ? His first sentence is critical that there is no suction available. No suction in is no fuel drawn into the combustion chamber. As racerone stated. Compression should be about 140 # Both cylinders are way down. The top cylinder being the lowest compression.
cyclops222, I was wrong regarding no suction on top cylinder at carb. I started the engine and allowed it to run on the lower cylinder and rechecked all of the items I had posted. As stated, I was WRONG regarding low or no suction on top cylinder it is the same as the bottom cylinder.

I'm guessing this might change thinking on this. Also as mentioned in another post, I'm a bit plagued by 4 stroke thinking, new to 2 cycle repair.

Any help will be greatly appreciated!

mebehoof
 

mebehoof

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I read post #1 and read many posts.-----It seems the simplicity of a 2 stroke and trouble shooting of them is not well understood !
racerone,

Amen to that Sir! I'm pouring over YouTube and any info I can find to try to understand things 2 stroke.

Question: on this 40hp Johnson is the crankcase common, i.e. shared by both cylinders or partitioned so each cylinder has its own fuel/air ?

Also, as I mentioned in a couple of posts, I was wrong, the top cylinder suction when running is the same roughly as the lower cylinder. Lot to learn.
mebehoof TIA
 
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