40 million Americans

[kenimpzoom]

Re: 40 million Americans

Coach, sounds like you paid "list price" or in the car world, they call it the "sticker price". Go back and negotiate with them. Insurance companies have deals with hospitals/doctors that usually insurance only pays about 25% of "list price" and the doc/hospital is happy. Try talking to them, what do you have to lose. It also helps if you dont pay it for a year, then come in and say "this is all I can pay". They will be happry to get it. My sister in law used to work in a medical accounting office, this is how I know.<br /><br />On the other hand, you can use the Regan medical plan (see above).<br /><br />Ken

 

[SoulWinner]

Re: 40 million Americans

Ok pW2, here is some imperical evidence for you. I have supplied the links because some of them contain more links for further information. First of though, I suggest you read It's Getting Better All the Time, by Steve Moore and Julian Simon. The book shows with graphs and charts how economic liberty and free markets have made America's "poor" the richest poor in human history. Now some links to the info you requested:<br /><br /> An Article with some stats <br /><br /> Here's one with some interesting links <br /><br /> This one has an intesting flow chart at the end This one even has some neat graphs!! <br /><br />And lastly,<br /> This one is nice <br /><br />I hate to break it to you PW but this isn't 1932, America is not in the throws of a major dperession, there are not "Two Americas", and things are not as bad as Demo Politicians would lead you to believe. Remember, this country became great before the federal income tax, before FDR and the New Society, and before the Great Society. People get along best when they have no government program that will give them an incentive to do as little as possible or nothing at all.

 

[Jack Shellac]

Re: 40 million Americans

Add this to the mix. My daughter is a hospital RN in Washington, DC. In one room they have an American citizen who has bankrupted himself trying to pay his hospital bill- sold car, house and everything owned to pay bill. Next door is an non-resident alien who is getting everything absolutely free because they won't pay the bill. The hospital can't turn them away or they'd be sued. This is a commom occurance. Who winds up paying the bill eventually? We the taxpayers.

 

[mellowyellow]

Re: 40 million Americans

another good example jack, but it's the citizen<br />in the other room who is paying (mostly), not the "taxpayers".<br />if providers had to rely on the state's portion<br />of costs (medi-care/aid) they'd be bankrupt in<br />no time, so they stick it to whoever/whenever<br />they can... like poor/honest coach above.

 

[PW2]

Re: 40 million Americans

What's the point of it, anyway, SW?<br /><br />You want the hospitals to start reposessing used TV's and VCRs and have a weekly garage sale? Or what?<br /><br />The fact remains that there are 40 million + people with no health insurance. That's ok for those that don't get sick, but those unfortunate people that happen to have some sort of catastrophic health care crisis, there are ways to get treatment and someone is going to pay.<br /><br />Is this the best America can do? For the record, I am not in favor of a first dollar everything paid Canadian like system--but there has to be a better way to offer some sort of catastrophic health care coverage for Americans that are not privledged enough to have coverage.

 

[Boomyal]

Re: 40 million Americans

Originally posted by PW2:<br />[QB] Is this the best America can do? [/QB

Yes, PW2. It is doing what it is mandated to do/not due. And when the Federal Government sticks to what it is supposed to do, we are ALL better off. It is exactly the constitutional role of the Federal Government.<br /><br />Where is it written that the Federal Government should forcibly make me pay for my neighbor's health. Where is it written that your health is an 'inalienable right', that must be provided by someone else. BTW, that would be an oxymoron.

 

[gspig]

Re: 40 million Americans

To illustrate why medical costs so much, I'll use Coach's experience. 40 years ago, he would go to his family doctor and the doctor would tie his finger to a splint. Today, there is expertise and procedures and tests that cost money. If you are willing to accept the least amount of medical intervention, costs go down. When people go to the emergency room for sniffles, that adds cost to insurance, when people sue for unavoidable or innocent errors, that adds cost, when people want the absolute best care around, that adds cost. Technology is expensive. Treatment for a heart attack used to be bed rest and change lifestyle. Not very expensive. Now there is cathetarization, heart valve replacement, nearly unlimited bypasses and no one wants to pass on those available treatments. That costs money. If car insurance was used the same way a medical insurance is, no one could afford it either. "I'll have my tire changed, I have insurance. Got a scratch on my door, I'll have the car repainted, I have insurance."

 

[ebbtide176]

Re: 40 million Americans

i am amazed at PW's comments. not so much that its a surprise, just that it is the same ole vicious cycle. i have 1 word for a reply, and will leave it for consideration:<br /><br />socialism<br /><br />hava good day

 

[pjc]

Re: 40 million Americans

Unless I missed this, anyone aware that prisoners in JAIL get cable tv, air conditioning, three hots and a cot, so to speak. 'sept those county prisoners in the SW U.S. that their Sheriff are treating justly IMO.<br /><br />All said, IMO, this crap coming from politicians now is just another means, or vehicle to play upon voters emotions to get the scum spouting this crap in office. And likewise, media publishing this is merely to sell papers AND further the individual writers agenda and gain exposure of their editorials.<br /><br />My position, I scrutinize and weigh any and all that is published/presented via the media now.

 

[pjc]

Re: 40 million Americans

And to PW2......peace brother, 'cause I do appreciate the challenge you have faced due to your kids challenge overcoming HUGE fences that she faced. My God, congrats on that. <br /><br />But, to shape a philosophy that we all must help those who are considered less fortunate ( read IMO lazy in the context of those who bottom feed off me by way of legislation forcing me to participate is what amounts to Socialism via taxation) to achieve a comfortable lifestyle while contributing zero to improve selves and then contribute to the process of helping others improve their lives is abhorrent. Especially based upon a persons personal experiences, close to home to speak, and then expound that because of "my" hardships and challenges, we as a Nation should adopt a "system" to address similar hardships for all.<br /><br />An example is the United States Tax policy called the "Earned Income Credit". Real fine in its intended purpose. Abused for the most part. <br /><br />I ramble on here, but, folks, please exhaust all your personal resources before you come to ask me to provide for you. <br /><br />Some Pol may have said something similar to this, if not, wish they would.

 

[pjc]

Re: 40 million Americans

And further to PW2, please...I can appreciate the hardships and sacrifice of raising as well as providing for a family. Regardless of the hand dealt so to speak. My Bride and I are Single Income Dual Kids (SIDK), but we manage without handouts. Play the game with the hand we are dealt. And very proud of the fact that we achieve what we have done. <br /><br />Am I well employed...yep.......due to my diligence.......will my Bride return to the work force.......yep, she is in part time night school now PLANNING for the future. And I add that this education/preparation is paid from our existing income. Not Government Grant (you and me). That said is all well and fine for my stake in life. Why is it not reasonable for me to expect others to do the same?<br /><br />The premise is that the lay on the butt folks want and expect me to provide for them.

 

[pjc]

Re: 40 million Americans

And furthermore.......PW2, I apologize if I seem to attack.....not so, and I do feel a degree of kinship due to the challenge of simply providing for our families AND the compassion that we have for other families.<br /><br />I do hope that somewhere a philosophical mix can be blended to create the "best" solution for those providing for as well as raising families.<br />Peace,...Pat

 

[Boomyal]

Re: 40 million Americans

Originally posted by Pat Campbell:<br /> I do hope that somewhere a philosophical mix can be blended to create the "best" solution for those providing for as well as raising families.<br />Peace,...Pat

That mix is already available. Medical savings accounts with catastrophic insurance coverage. If consumers were issuing the checks to the doctors, the prices would come down for primary health care. <br /><br />When I was a kid, my family doctor was a very well to do man. If I had a sore throat, you could call for a perscription with the advice to call back if the situation did not improve by the next morning. Cost? Zero. Try to get new perscription for anything today and it's a $100 office visit.<br /><br />If you try to bargain down the exhorbitant costs today, they tell you to take a hike. If all of their funds came directly from the patient, the story would be different. Also, just look at these Tah Mahal hospitals and clinics they build today. Do we really need these to provide reasonable medical services?<br /><br />Get the third party payee and the government out of healthcare and there will be no more issue. Reduce the federal taxes, let all the liberal do-gooder doctors man the county health clinics on a pay as you're able basis. <br /><br />Mandate that insurance companies have to develop catastrophic medical policies, available from birth and the cost should be quite reasonable.<br /><br />I think that political elements today, want the current system that they messed up, to fail. All the more reason to convice people to vote for national socialism.

 

[CoachHolland]

Re: 40 million Americans

Originally posted by gspig:<br /> To illustrate why medical costs so much, I'll use Coach's experience. 40 years ago, he would go to his family doctor and the doctor would tie his finger to a splint. Today, there is expertise and procedures and tests that cost money. If you are willing to accept the least amount of medical intervention, costs go down. When people go to the emergency room for sniffles, that adds cost to insurance, when people sue for unavoidable or innocent errors, that adds cost, when people want the absolute best care around, that adds cost. Technology is expensive. Treatment for a heart attack used to be bed rest and change lifestyle. Not very expensive. Now there is cathetarization, heart valve replacement, nearly unlimited bypasses and no one wants to pass on those available treatments. That costs money. If car insurance was used the same way a medical insurance is, no one could afford it either. "I'll have my tire changed, I have insurance. Got a scratch on my door, I'll have the car repainted, I have insurance."

Agreed, however in my case, the specialist was the cheapest of the two major bills. $1100 for five x-rays so far, surgery and placement of two titanium screws, one pre-op visit and four post-ops. $1100 is their *total* bill to me and I think what they charged was well worth it considering their expertise and the amount of time they have put in. $4000 is my total bill from the hospital and I have yet to figure out what the hell they actually contributed to all this because the anesthesist and hospital x-ray tech all billed me seperately from the hospital.<br /><br />I'm fortute though to be able to pay this. many don't and their credit gets screwed by the hospitals screwing them. If they charged reasonably, then maybe more would pay.<br /><br />Then again, those that don't have health insurance usually can't afford it, so a reasonable health care cost wouldn't be paid either. i was just stupid and didn't have it. The trips to my family doctor cost me $20 a visit, a shot of B-12 and I'm on my way with a prescription if I need one. I figured why get health insurance with a doc like that? Now I know why.

 

[gonfishn]

Re: 40 million Americans

My heart Attack after all was said and done hit the scales at 150 thousand..It only takes one time..Wait til you get up in the years..My deductable was a thousand..My cost is 85 Bucks a month to be covered....Wonder how long it would have taken me to pay it off..Your playing with fire without some kind of health insurance..<br /><br />A thousand dollars a year is not that bad considering the alternative without any..

 

[PW2]

Re: 40 million Americans

I don't have a simple solution to this but to suggest that 40 million Americans are lazy somehow is just plain idiotic.<br /><br />And I am not an advocate of socialism at all.<br /><br />But the reality is that we are already paying for them somehow by default, and we can do much better than this haphazard system we have.<br /><br />Navigating thru the insurance systems in this country can be a nightmare. I recall when my 5 year old daughter had brain surgery. It was a $100,000 event (almost 20 years ago now).<br /><br />Both my wife at the time and I had insurance, and traditionally because I was the man, my insurance had always paid first. It worked fine for some of the preliminaries, until the insurance company got a $20k bill from the doctor, and a $60k bill from the hospital. Then they announced that because of a new Washington State law, the spouse with the birthday earlier in the year was the primary insurer, and they refused to pay until my wife's paid. (They call it the birthday rule!) Meanwhile my wife's insurance still said they were secondary, and would not pay until mine paid. And they both worked with call centers where you could not request a specific person to talk to, and all got paid by the number of calls they took. So since problems took time, none of them wanted to take any time, or problems, on.<br /><br />Meanwhile this went on for 6 months and the hospital was telling me they needed to get paid, my insurance problems were my problems, and they were going to turn me into a collection agency.<br /><br />It took the Washington state insurance commissioner, at my request, to finally straighten it out, over a year later.<br /><br />The funny thing was that finally my wife's insurance did indeed admit they were primary, and paid their share of all the bills from day one, even bills that had already been paid by my insurance. When the dust settled, we had been overpaid by something like $15k.<br /><br />So I went back to my insurance company three times to tell them of this overpayment, which all three times they told me it could not happen.<br /><br />So we put the money in separate account, in a certificate of deposit, and gave them 7 years to find their mistake. They never did, and it paid for my daughter's first year of university!<br /><br />But there has got to be a better way.

 

[CoachHolland]

Re: 40 million Americans

Who's your insurance company? I'm signing up today.

 

[1730V]

Re: 40 million Americans

The problem is that few if anyone cares when the insurance pays. It is like its not real money.

 

[SoulWinner]

Re: 40 million Americans

PW2, you asked for me to back up my claims, and I did. So you counter with the argument that hospitals shouldn't have to repo Tv's? That is weak. The people with the TV's should be paying for insurance, not TV's and 22" rims, and booming car sterios, and all the other "keeping up with the Jones" crapolla. That is the point PW.....sheesh

 

[PW2]

Re: 40 million Americans

Well, all of you back-up were opinion pieces, but somehow it simply does not matter in the least.<br /><br />This is not a problem of the "poor". This is the problem of lack of insurance. Either somehow we require, as we do with car insurance, that everyone have insurance before you can have kids, maybe? Or maybe proof of insurance presented to the delivery room doctor?<br /><br />Or would you prefer needing proof of insurance to buy a TV or a VCR? What exactly are you looking for, except to complain that others don't behave just like you do?<br /><br />The reality is if uninsured people get really sick, somehow they get care, and someone pays for that, and no doubt it is us taxpayers.<br /><br />And certainly they do not get preventative care, which is the most cost effective anyway.<br /><br />So what do we do? Want to build debtor's prisons for those that are healed, but can't pay the bill? I don't understand.<br /><br />What is the alternate plan? I don't see where complaining about the choices that some of these 40 million people make is doing anything at all to solve this problem.